Shut the #$@% up About Systemic Misandry

suffrages

If ever again I am forced to wear some kind of identifying tag on my business-casual polo, I hope it will read, ‘Systemic misandry is a myth. Ask me how!’

About two weeks ago, I wrote an op-ed concerning the possibility of a woman playing the eponymous Doctor on Doctor Who. Since this has been a consideration dating back to the early 80′s, it hadn’t occurred to me at first that people would be so vehemently against it. But they are. Oh, my, are they. In fact, the overwhelming majority of people polled indicated they would prefer the Doctor always be male.

It didn’t become clear until I read the comments, though, that the most vocal of these Who fans were, in fact, Men’s Rights Activists. Comments on my feature covered a host of topics. They told me that men are the ones who suffer. What about the slavery of chivalry, Dan? What about LADIES NIGHT? Wasn’t I aware that men are not allowed to sit next to children on planes in certain very specific instances on one particular airline?

In fact, the only way Doctor Who really came up during this discussion is because, according to MRA’s, if the Doctor stops being male, boys will no longer have any role models.

Respectfully, when the protagonists of almost all popular, modern fiction are male, that particular argument doesn’t really hold much water for me.

But, to my mind, Doctor Who is a footnote here. The Men’s Rights Activists I spoke with were intensely adamant about something that goes far beyond a television show — systemic misandry is REAL. And while I’ve seen things that aren’t great (like this notion that men are barred from sitting next to children they don’t know on one airline, for example, or the way custody battles tend to play out during divorce cases) I simply don’t agree. A few examples of men getting mistreated does not a systemic problem make, especially when compared with misogyny and rape culture.

But, Dan, you may be saying. How can you be so sure? Well, I’m getting to that. Right now, in fact.

So let’s pretend for a moment that I have got my little nametag thingie on –

 

systemicmisandry

Ask me how I know that there is no such heinous conspiracy to bring down all of penis-having kind.

(I’m just going to pretend at this point that you asked)

SO GLAD YOU ASKED!

The short answer is, “I’ve lived, at different times in my life, as both a man and as a woman”. The extensive background of how that came about, while interesting, is ultimately superfluous. Instead of talking about that, I’m going to describe an experience from both sides of the gender coin which, I think, will serve as a simple example of why systemic misogyny and rape culture are a thing but misandry is not.

Okay, ready?

Fellas. It’s late at night in your city, and you’re walking home/to your car/to the train/whateva. There aren’t many other people around but, just up ahead, is a woman. Everything seems normal when, suddenly, she quickens her pace a bit. Then, without warning, she crosses to the opposite side of the street. She’s still walking in the same direction, mind you, she is just clearly trying to get away from you.

STOP RIGHT THERE. That feeling you’re having – you know the one. The feeling where you’re all “WTF, is up with this bitch? I’m not a rapist. And, anyway, even if I was, I wouldn’t touch that skank. FUCK HER.” Stop. I already anticipated you. STOP. IT.

How did I know you were thinking that? Because, when I was much younger and more naïve than I am now, I thought the exact same thing. I took that shit so personally. Oh, how it chaffed my unique snowflake of an ego! But it shouldn’t have. It wasn’t about me. I am not special. Neither are you.

At the time, that was totally beyond the scope of my understanding. But then I experienced life on the other side of that equation and, buddy, it ain’t equal. Let me break it down for you.

Once again, it is late at night in Everycity, USA. I’m a twenty-something woman on the town, I’ve had a drink or two and, as I clumsily clop down the street in my heels (which are getting less comfortable by the nanosecond, mind you) to get home I sense that there is someone behind me. I can tell the following – the person is a guy who is bigger than I am and there is no one else nearby.

I am suddenly gripped with uncontrollable dread. I don’t know anything about this man. My mind begins to race. I consider that, in my inebriated state and with these damned shoes, he could easily overtake me. And he’s bigger than I am. If he wanted to hurt me, he could. I think of every story(there are a LOT) I have ever heard (both on the news and from actual survivors I know) about women being assailed on the street, I think of my own experiences with street harassment (and harassment from acquaintances, too) and I curse myself for not thinking far enough ahead to have someone with me.

So I quicken my pace. Did he quicken his? Fuck, I can’t tell. I figure, if I cross the street and he doesn’t follow, then I’m safe. So that’s exactly what I do. I rush to the other side of the road as fast as my wobbly little legs will allow.

He doesn’t follow. I nip into the train station a few blocks later and try to calm myself down before I throw up all over the place.

That story? It really happened to me and you’ll find that similar experiences are universal to almost every woman you’ll ever encounter.

Now let’s look at the consequences for the man and the woman, respectively, in this scenario.

For the man, the worst thing that can happen is that, out of fear, the woman might think he is a rapist and put some distance between she and he. As a result, his feelings might be hurt.

For the woman, the worst thing that can happen is rape and/or death.

Do you see how these things are not comparable?

That vast inequality comes from systemic sexism, misogyny, and rape culture. And all of those things have been a part of our society for such a long time that they’ve seeped into even the most seemingly innocuous of daily events.

This didn’t happen because we’re keeping men down. It happened because men, more often than not, lead a relatively consequence-free life when it comes to harassing and abusing women, be they mothers, wives, daughters, or strangers on the street. When men hurt women, they tend to get away with it. That’s the overwhelming truth of the matter — our society favors men.

So systemic misandry? Yeah… not so much.

And the problem with MRA’s is that they seem either unable or unwilling to have any kind of meaningful human empathy towards women. They are almost solely interested in the sufferings of themselves and other men. So when laws are passed to protect women, they wonder – where are our protections? And that’s a lot like asking why Black Entertainment Television exists but there’s no White People Network. It’s because EVERY OTHER CHANNEL IS WHITE PEOPLE NETWORK.

And, more than that, MRA’s are intensely anti-feminist as though, somehow, women fighting to end a culture of fear is the same as fucking up dude’s collective shit. But they’re wrong. Legislation designed to combat sexism is not designed nor is it executed to harm men — it is designed to protect women, Because, when you’ve built a society on a foundation of misogyny, women need some protecting from that society while we strive to fix it.

  • Merklyn236

    I have to admit that my knowledge of Doctor Who is very minimal, which probably means I should hand over my nerd card. That being said, I really don’t get why the Doctor being reborn (isn’t that what happens? his body dies and he gets shunted to a new one (i.e. new actor)?) as a woman would be an issue. Although I think if that happened you couldn’t do it and NOT mention it…but that’s a writing issue, not a character issue.

    That aside, the MRA thing just infuriates me. Not your take on it, Dan – which was VERY eloquently put, but the situation itself. There are issues in society that really give men the shaft, as you mention, but that doesn’t translate into a societal bias against men! That’s so much of a leap of logic that I can’t see how they can make the jump with the huge tinfoil hats they must be wearing.

    I will add one caveat though. You mention “Legislation designed to combat sexism is not designed nor is it executed to harm men…”. I think you almost have to leave out that last line. The spirit of these laws are fully intended to fight sexism against women, but how they are executed goes into a case by case basis and I think going that far down into the weeds you will see jerkasses warping the law to fit their own agendas. Maybe I’m nitpicking though.

    • Project Dan

      There are rare exceptions where people may try and execute legislation to harm an individual man, but I suspect, the chance that misandry plays a hand in cases like that is very, very slim. Still, your point is well taken.

      • Merklyn236

        I thank you. :tipofthehat: Again, very well done column.

      • Jack Troughton

        The precisely same thing can be said when (if ever it happens) there is legislative or executive penalties against women (not just FOR others and hence not kowtowing to needy, weak women, but actually AGAINST), or the explanations too-readily offered at the proportion of black incarcerates in America, or Previous Nations inmates in Canada.

  • Joshua Pelfrey

    My running joke is that the Doctor will always be a man and they will do their best to stick to having a girl sidekick that he finds to be super special.
    Why?
    So that the men in the audience can power fantasize about being the Doctor.
    And
    Women can fantasize about the ultimate “dating an older man” scenario, in which he gives you amazing gifts, takes you to amazing places, has an amazing vehicle, and you don’t have to have sex with a gross-old-sad-pathetic rich guy in order to get these things.

    It’s not a good message. But it is one that they sell, and can sell well.

    • TheOmegaGeek

      Ehhhh, I disagree. What do children get out of DW, then, especially ones too young to develop gender-driven fantasies like that? Should a lesbian fantasize about being the Doctor or a companion, and should that be driven by a butch/femme dichotomy? Then there’s gay men, who kept the fandom alive in the ‘dark times’…Doctor or companion, top or bottom? I doubt it’s as cut-and-dry.

    • Xaria

      Until New Who the biggest adult fanbase of Doctor Who was gay men. They nearly single handedly kept the show alive when it was off the air. Part of the reason it was so popular with them was because The Doctor wasn’t explicitly heterosexual. And honestly the show is much weaker and less interesting with the Doctor/ companion relationship at all resembling a heterosexual romance. Male/ female semi-romances being the backbone of character interaction of a show is really common and Doctor Who not having that was one of the things that made it unique

    • Jack Troughton

      That also very closely resembles man’s evolutionary upbringing, and the basis of our nature…

  • Magdalen O’Reilly

    So great to read this. You hit the nail right on the head, it’s a lack of basic human empathy. Our culture really does have some serious issues with the way we socialize young boys/men: circumcision, not allowing any form of emotional expression, “homo suspicion” overtaking any form of male bonding etc. Men live in this gilded cage of societal expectation and MRAs really should be fighting THAT. It seems like a large portion of MRAs are young men who think “Mens Rights” sounds like a good idea but don’t really understand the cultural implications.

    • anon

      From what I can tell, MRAs are fighting that. Indeed, one of their main issues is male genital mutilation.

      • Roman Monaghan

        And the judicial system naturally favoring the mother in child custody cases, the issues of rape allegations and how they’re viewed by the public (to hear most womens rights activists talk innocent until proven guilty shouldn’t apply to rape cases so that more then anything is a topic the groups should hash out an understanding on) and of course disputing the still prevalent male gender stereotypes that penis owners aren’t allowed to have emotions and must be the dominant ones in the relationship and have to be the stronger sex. MRA and Feminists are fighting for the same god damn things, but it’s this constant need in our culture to label shit and assign everyone who doesn’t share your label as the enemy that causes mass ignorance misunderstanding and hatred that you see both in this article and comments.

        • Magdalen O’Reilly

          The label of MRA isn’t inherently bad. But unfortunately it’s seen an influx of young men who don’t fully understand the issues and complexities of the problems. Mainly in a response to Feminism. Young men don’t like being called sexist, get defensive, try to rationalize why they’re NOT sexist. And then join MRA out a misguided understanding that MRA means ANTI FEMINISM, or rather Anti “This lady who is saying things I don’t like.” MRAs are developing a poor reputation as a group of defensive, privileged white men who refuse to see that there is a problem with the status quo, and if it is, they’re surely the victims themselves. Real MRA need to step up and educate the younger generation on the real problems… and tell them to stop calling people “slutty bitches” in forums because it’s really not helping the problem.

          • anon

            Feminists also have a rather poor reputation at this point. Third wave feminism is working from a position of equal rights under the law, so it’s a bit harder to sympathize with all the man hating quotes that you find. For instance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQWoNhrY_fM

          • Roman Monaghan

            I think, everything you said you could switch MRA and Feminism and it’d still come out exactly the same, and I think that illustrates the problem I have with a social movement group thats named after one gender or the other more then anything.

            I also like the privileged white men thing, cuz something I’ve noticed is I don’t think I’ve ever seen a black feminist woman. Ever? It’s funny to me, cuz it reminds me of how during the initial feminist marches in the 1920s they banned colored women from taking part, cuz they were black and stuff. I also find it funny that how whenever feminists pull out the “75 cents on the dollar” quote, they dont mention black women only make 60 cents on the dollar, and hispanic woman only make 50.

            I’ve thus come to the conclusion the Feminism vs MRA thing that’s cropped up lately is just white women and white men yelling at each other while all us ethnics are pointing out how stupid it is.

        • anon

          So we should all form a big egalitarian group who hold hands and sing kumbaya.

          • Wack’d

            Beats making the various people’s fronts in Life of Brian look downright sane by comparison.

      • MRAAlternate

        Male disposability is the number one issue that defines the male experience. It is the number one issue that stretches through every subcatagorized issue that systemically discriminates against men.

    • SarahJesness

      Oy, yeah. That’s really one big issue I have with MRAs: they complain about sexism against men, but at the same time, most of them promote beliefs and mindsets that perpetuate that sexism. For example, “men are strong and women are weak”. If you live in a society that believes that and said society goes to war, who will logically be chosen to go off and fight. Another is that “women are naturally better with kids and should stay home”. If your society believes that, then of COURSE women will get custody in the large majority of divorce cases.

      Sexism is intertwined. A system that oppresses women will also often create problems for men. You can’t get rid of sexism for either gender unless you acknowledge that it exists for both.

      • tbok1992

        Yes, oh god yes! I think we need to make a specific name for that specific sub-creed of feminism so we can better organize under it to combat the actual men-specific problems that the MRAs are either ignoring, or even worse, encouraging.

      • Anthony J. Rand

        Exactly. A misogynist society is one that is harmful to the women AND men within it.

        • Foamy Darkale

          and when you forget about misandry you hurt others as well. The original Cheetah arch nemesis of wonder woman was one of those but hey lets forget comic books were a platform that addressed serious social issues that hollywood is finally cashing in on. which is why Disney had to buy out marvel to cash in on.

      • MonikerMonk

        Men aren’t strong and women aren’t weak, however, men do tend to be naturally predisposed to being more muscular in the upper body. A woman can get stronger than most men if she exercises enough, and most men today aren’t as fit as your average hunter-gatherer, so it’s pretty much even.

      • MRAAlternate

        Biology promotes the belief that men are stronger than women in general – though there certainly are a portion of women who are stronger than a portion of men. And systemic misandry is not the result of “oppressed women.” However, feminism is a large portion of contemporary systemic misandry.

    • Roman Monaghan

      Kinda like most feminists, AMIRIGHT

      I’m just missing the part where saying MRAs are bad because a handful of its members are crazy, but Feminism is fine even with its crazy members who say “kill all men” without irony.

      • Magdalen O’Reilly

        Yeeeeeah, except you’ve used the very same logic that your calling bullshit on against Feminists. ” bad because a handful of its members are crazy” that goes both ways.

        • Roman Monaghan

          Kinda my point exactly

      • Anthony J. Rand

        There are no “kill all men” feminists. Name one. It’s a stereotype with no basis in fact. I’ve met some angry as hell feminists in my life, but the only “crazy” ones are the caricatures I’ve seen on sitcoms.

        • Roman Monaghan

          http://users.livejournal.com/_allecto_/34718.html

          If you can stomach reading through this entire thing, this particular individual is exactly the kind of “feminist” I am referring to.

          If you aren’t a fan of the “kill all men” exaggeration, perhaps the “castrate all men” or “the only way to be a truly liberated woman is to be a lesbian” direct quoting from various tumblr blogs spoken without irony would be more lining up with your delusional “there’s no psychotic feminists” view of reality?

          • Anthony J. Rand

            I did read the whole thing, and while I disagree with most of it (she has a point about Zoe not having outside interests, and I’ve always thought Whedon had a free ride on his “feminism”), she never says she wants men to be killed or castrated. She certainly seems racist and homophobic, but this is LiveJournal we’re talking about, a hotbed of whining and teen angst. You may as well use YouTube commenters as an example of literary discourse.

        • MRAAlternate

          Charlotte Perkins Gilman – pretty much. There are no “kill all women” misogynists at all.

          • Anthony J. Rand

            Find me a quote where she promotes this idea and maybe we’ll talk.

            I originally assumed you were being sarcastic here, but I see from your other posts you’re either trolling or just a little moron. Violence towards women is one of the things that separates “misogyny” from “sexism” or “chauvinism.” Ted Bundy wasn’t a “kill all women” misogynist?

          • MRAAlternate

            No, Ted Bundy was just an opportunistic predator – he didn’t advocate the systematic elimination of women as a political stance.

            In “Herland” the all female society keeps the only male cat they have locked behind a wall lest it get out and impregnate the other cats. They only use it to selectively breed the cats. It wouldn’t be present if it didn’t serve as insight into Gilman’s thinking about how males should be used in her idealistic society – just locked in a cage and used for breeding purposes.

          • Anthony J. Rand

            But the human beings in Herland reproduce asexually. There are no males to imprison. Only using the male cat for breeding purposes seems like a pretty legitimate way to keep the cat population down.

            And either way, Herland doesn’t really exist. It’s a work of satire, there’s a degree of irony between the author and the reader.

          • MRAAlternate

            It’s most certainly not satire. You apparently don’t know the meaning of the word. What is it satirizing? Yes, they reproduce asexually – not impossible in today’s world at all. All you need is to pump men for sperm.

            Anyway – it truly shows the depths of hatred that feminists are capable of. I’m slightly more gracious to Gilman because she grew up in that society, but I didn’t and a reasonable person wouldn’t hold me accountable for things men did in the 50′s.

            Regardless, if you haven’t noticed the systemic misandry in our society, you’re not paying attention.

            Also, Gilman went into detail about how the women made sure to let the female cats roam free but were sure to imprison the male cat – her meaning is quite clear.

          • Anthony J. Rand

            It’s a satire of the world Gilman lived in. Herland was written five years before women got the right to vote. Spousal rape was accepted, homosexuality was a mental illness that could result in imprisonment, the Great War was heating up. Life suuuucked for everybody and she was imagining a world where it would be better. So she imagined a world in which men weren’t calling the shots. All utopian fiction is satirical of the world we live in, taking real life concepts and turning them on their side so that we examine them different. While I disagree with the early suffragette idea that there’d be no war without men, I’m not stupid enough to literally believe she was suggesting all men should be killed.
            And if she did hate men, well, lord knows men probably gave her plenty of reasons to. Why shouldn’t you hate your oppressor?

            No one is holding you or anyone accountable for what men did in the 50s. We’re holding you accountable for being an asshole now. And you are. You’re not standing up for the oppressed, you’re not expressing your opinion, you’re just a bad person. You don’t care about equality or freedom, you just want to be the one holding the whip. You suck, and no one should have to let you off the hook for that.

          • MRAAlternate

            Except that history has taught us that women are more violent and oppressive than men will ever be.

            If I recall, Gilman was college educated, unmarried, and carved out a significant name for herself as a white independent woman – who also happened to advocate eugenics and enslaving black men. Gilman wasn’t oppressed by barely any standard other than she couldn’t vote. I think that’s, of course, incredibly wrong, but she was extremely privileged for her time period.

            She was a hater of men, who had more power than the vase majority of men had at the time. She was also an irrepressible racist – like many white feminists were and are.

            She was free to divorce her husband, free to educate herself, free to write and speak, free to educate others, free to advocate a return to slavery for blacks. Free to advocate communism. Free to publish. Free to work.

            Sure, there were still a lot of sexist things that happened and those have been dealt with – to the extent that the systematic cruelty to men that has been employed against them for centuries is now strongly backed by feminism.

            One day, men will wise up and rise against the state’s bigotry against them – and feminists will be sucked down with them because for all the legitimate concerns feminists have had – they have been satisfied and they have become the main bullies and oppressors of men.

          • Anthony J. Rand

            The state’s bigotry…? You mean the state that is more than 80% run by men?

            http://www.nwpc.org/statistics

          • MRAAlternate

            Does the state being run by men exempt them from behaving in a way very detrimental to men? Does the state being run by women exempt them from causing a lot of harm to other women?

            When Emmett Till was beat to death by a couple white guys for flirting with a white woman – did it take just the white guys to do it or the woman who thought it was such an awful imposition on her ego that she just had to get her violent dogs to do something about it?

            Women engage in violence by proxy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA2P_FLcWsI

          • Anthony J. Rand

            “The enemy is infinitely strong and infinitely weak.”

          • MRAAlternate

            I don’t know what you mean by that. I don’t believe women are weak (mentally – more likely to be so physically) – that’s primarily a feminist and conservative religion position.

      • Melodia E. McIntyre

        I’ll accept this when you demonstrate the “good” MRAs- not only that they exist, but that they are the majority.

        • Roman Monaghan

          Right after you prove that “good” feminists are the majority. You’ll have just as an impossible a time.

          • Melodia E. McIntyre

            Doubtful.

          • Anthony J. Rand

            Um, every woman who has replied to you probably identifies as a feminist, and none of them seem crazy. None have recommended you be murdered for your gender. So I’m going to assume you’re making presumptions here. You’re not mad that there are crazy people who are feminists, you’re just assuming anyone who calls themself a feminist is crazy. And from there we can probably just assume you hate women.

      • Emma

        Feminism is a broad term covering lots and lots of issues. Generally speaking, women who believe that men should all be killed are referred to as “female utopianists”, at least in my area. On any political issue, there are going to be extremes. That doesn’t negate the issues. That’s like saying that ALL Christians are hyper-oppressive and hypocritical or that ALL atheists are rude and against human freedoms. Both sides have their extremists and moderates. You’re right to note that those who promote the idea of killing are men are crazy as all hell. But they are often reacting so violently out of fear. Their anger is derived from a panicked overcorrect. It’s not right, but it doesn’t mean that all feminists are wrong or that the issues being addressed don’t exist. You can’t nullify an entire school of thought due to the actions of a few members.

    • Anthony J. Rand

      I’ve always said that feminism benefits men as well as women. Any society that tells women what they can and cannot do based on their gender is by default confining men to their gender roles as well. Obviously, homophobia goes hand in hand with misogyny for that reason: if women have to marry men, than gay men have no right to marry other gay men. And if all women have to be submissive housewives, than all men have to be the head of household. As someone who would love to be a stay-at-home dad, that’s pretty damn unfair.

      Of course, I’m in no way saying men have it worse than women, that’s simply not true. We’ve made lots of progress, but systemic misogyny is still an awful fact. But if you want to stand up for the rights of men, the best way to do that is by being a feminist.

      • Magdalen O’Reilly

        Very true. It’s not that our culture doesn’t have problematic views on men and “manliness”. It’s that those problems don’t create a consistent environment where they fear for their lives. We know custody battles are an important problem, we just think feeling like you’re under constant threat of sexual/physical abuse is like… MORE important. I’m sorry that some men can’t empathize with that, but you’re just going to have to trust us- it’s a big deal.

        SPEAKING OF MAN PROBLEMS: The best video on men’s role in society that everyone should watch! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=td1PbsV6B80

  • funkym

    Now, I’d argue this point, but all that needs to be said has been. So yeah, Comments. :)

  • Timothy Morrise

    I wish those who saw men’s rights activism as a viable way to gender equality realized that the fastest way to stop those few instances in which men are marginalized by their gender (and boy are they few), is to focus on contributing to feminism. Less men hurting women means a decrease in the (false and rather rare) stereotype that all men are rapists. MRA should be less “I’m oppressed” than “guys this is why we can’t have nice things… so I’m not gonna put up with misogyny.”

    • Sheeve

      It would be nice if less men could actually be rapists as well. Here’s an interesting blog about it. http://amptoons.com/blog/2004/05/05/how-many-men-are-rapists/ 4.5% apparently. That’s a lot of brothers, sons, fathers, that don’t have any empathy or respect for women.

      • Timothy Morrise

        Yes that is sad. It’s down right discouraging.

      • Roman Monaghan

        And lord knows statistics are always reliable, can’t be screwed to favor one view point or another, and never have contradictory statistics in the opposite favor.

        • gveret

          Darlin’, one in four women will get sexually assaulted at one point in their lives. This is based on the number of such cases that get reported, which are much fewer than those that actually take place. If it’s skewed, it’s skewed towards optimism.

          Now, even if we go with the assumption that there’s only 1 rapist for every 5 survivors, that’s still 5% percent of all men right there.

          • MonikerMonk

            That “one in four” statistic is a bit sketchy. Looked it up and found varying numbers, from one sixth all the way to one third, but the point is that the male sex drive is just a bit more powerful than the female one on average, and there are unfortunately a lot of people (mostly male, but that isn’t an excuse to generalize) who just can’t stop themselves from fucking everything that moves.

          • gveret

            See, that first part of your argument is actually valid and relevant; statistics do indeed vary depending on location and date. Unfortunately, the rest of your argument is not.

            1. Male sex drive just a bit more powerful than the female one on average? We could argue on the validity of the experiments conducted to achieve this assertion, but let’s just assume they’re accurate. Even so, I really don’t see how this point is relevant, since an increased sex drive in no way leads to rape, but I’ll address this in the third point.

            2. Not an excuse to generalize? All right, I suppose there’s really never an excuse to generalize, but do remember that the number of female rapists, in comparison to male, is overwhelmingly small.

            3. Here we go. This is the real whammy. The big, juicy one. THEY JUST CAN’T STOP THEMSELVES. O the poor, unfortunate souls, victims of their own UNSTOPPABLE LIBIDO. Nymphos ain’t got nothing on these guys, amirite? They just go around humping every surface in sight. Willing women, unwilling women, female canines, male canines, smooth lampposts, painful scratchy lampposts. You see, the urge is just too damn strong. Their hands bleed constantly from the strain of trying to satisfy them themselves, but it is just never enough. They always need MORE.

            Yeah, this is a myth. Rapists aren’t poor hapless sods enslaved by their own lust. Rape is a deliberate act of violence, and violence is its main draw to these people (see? gender neutral). They get off on the pain and humiliation of their victim. There’s absolutely nothing more to it.

          • MonikerMonk

            Here’s my problem with that. A drunk college guy isn’t thinking “Oh, I want to assert my dominance over the female gender by having sex with them.!” They think “That chick is hot. I’m horny. I want to fuck her silly and cum buckets in her hair.” For some men, emptying the contents of their balls into a woman is the first thought on their mind. The problem is, these people have no self-control or better judgement that stops them from acting on impulses that many people have. As well, I never said that they were poor hapless sods. Rape is a deplorable crime and it shouldn’t happen to anyone. Period. However, if I came off as sympathetic or as defending rapists, that wasn’t my intention. Either you read too far into it or I just wrote wrong. I’m assuming it’s the first one because I in no way suggested that these people were not responsible for what they did.

          • gveret

            I realize I’m replying to this really fucking late and that arguing with you is pointless since we seem to be on two totally different wavelengths, but I just wanted to say this:

            Rape doesn’t just happen by accident or a misunderstanding or by being really horny. Rape happens because people make a choice to rape. It is not a lapse in judgement. It is a deliberate, conscious, informed fucking decision.

          • MonikerMonk

            I remember reading an article a while back that a bunch of teens were having sex ed and the teacher said that if the person’s drunk and they say yes, it’s still rape and the kids were genuinely surprised. It just goes to show that overall, misunderstandings happen. As well, bad people happen, and misinformation happens and all of these can contribute to rape. It doesn’t excuse/absolve anyone from anything, but it provides an explanation (NOT an alibi or a sentence of innocence). Anyway, thanks for being civil in your disagreement. I really have nothing left to say except to request you clarify what being on “different wavelengths” means.

          • gveret

            Huh, I guess it doesn’t make sense in English. I just meant we see things and communicate them very differently, and that makes it harder to understand each other.

          • Anthony J. Rand

            As a man with a pretty active sex drive, I find it incredibly insulting you would imply I have no control over myself.

            Of course, you’re wrong about women, too. I’ve never dated a woman who didn’t have a strong sex drive, either.

          • Charna Charna

            Dude there are plenty of viable sex options that don’t involve rape. Unless your completely deformed (And even then there are always fetishists) or your personality is terrible (And even then there are nymphos who don’t care about your personality). If someone has to use rape to get sex they must either be the most unlovable son of a bitch the world has ever known or they’re not trying hard enough. Besides rape isn’t usually even about the sex it’s about control. Therefore your whole thing about the male sex drive being more powerful (Which I highly doubt is actually a thing) is ridiculous. If they were just horny they could get it almost anywhere except of course from the people who say “no” but as I pointed out there would be plenty of people willing to say “yes”.

      • Egalitarian

        A similar number of women admit to being rapists, if you properly define rape to include being made to penetrate, rather than require the victim to be penetrated as is typically done in studies.

        See: http://www.ejhs.org/volume5/deviancetonormal.htm

        “the evidence presented here shows that as many as 7% of women self-report the use of physical force to obtain sex, 40% self-report sexual coercion…”

      • MRAAlternate

        Over half of those “rapists” used no force, restraint, violence, or coercion in their “rapes.” Meaning their “victim” was free to leave at any time if she found the situation uncomfortable. Feminists insist on denying women agency and stating they are responsible for their decisions to consent to sex, even if they regret it later, so they redefine “rape” to things it never included in the past when we considered women capable of being accountable for their choices.

    • MRAAlternate

      Nonsense, feminists are some of the lead promoters of ideologies and policies that directly harm men. I would be inclined to work with them if they weren’t systemically biased against men, but they are.

  • MichaelT

    One way I know systematic misandry is not real is that I had never heard the word “misandry” until now.

    • http://www.epcyclopedia.com Epcot Explorer’s Encyclopedia

      The term “racist” didn’t exist until 1932. So I suppose the 1920′s was devoid of racism?

      • Project Dan

        Oh, look, more false equivalency from you. Surprise!

        • anon

          I believe he was saying that saying that misandry doesn’t exist because you’ve never heard the word is ridiculous.

        • Joey

          An exact equivalency isn’t actually required for him to point out that an argument from incredulity is a bad argument.

          • Project Dan

            So we’re going to go ahead and ignore the part where he conflated racism, which has subjugated generation after generation of human beings, and systemic misandry, a thing that does not exist.

            OKAY.

          • Joey

            No, I’m just saying that an argument from incredulity is a logical fallacy. I think that’s what he was trying to point out. Metaphors don’t have to actually compare the two issues, they can simply compare the way you talk about them. Epcot could have said “I never heard of toasters before now, so toast must not be a thing” and it wouldn’t actually be comparing misandry and toast.

          • Project Dan

            MichaelT wasn’t pointing out anything. He was making a joke. Epcot, however, decided this was the perfect opportunity to conflate misandry with racism when the two aren’t remotely comparable.

          • Joey

            No, that’s what I just said, he wasn’t conflating the two. He just restructured the “joke” to point out a logical fallacy. The subject he used in rephrasing it isn’t relevant because the two subjects aren’t being compared in any way.

          • Project Dan

            When you use a topic like racism in a discussion about systemic bias that is a pointed choice.

          • Joey

            That’s speculation and a giant red herring. The point has been made, and rather than argue against the point, you decided to make it about the subject used in the metaphor which is clearly not the salient point of the argument. If you think he was wrong to point out the logical issues with the original post then please argue in favor of it.

          • Project Dan

            You’re right. When faced with the possibility of ‘racism was chosen deliberately in a discussion about systemic problems facing our society’ and ‘racism was drawn out of a hat at random and had nothing to do with everything’ obviously choice 2 is the more likely option.

            Get real, dude.

          • Joey

            I didn’t say he chose the subject at random, I said how he chose it and what he chose isn’t actually relevant. You’re not actually arguing against the point he made. That’s what a red herring is. It’s a logical fallacy and a terrible argument. Address the point or go back to bed.

          • Project Dan

            And I’m saying his choice to bring up racism is relevant to this discussion and other things he has said elsewhere in this thread. Just because you’ve decided it doesn’t matter doesn’t make it so.

          • Joey

            I’m not saying he’s a good guy or that anything else he is saying is right. Literally all I said here was that there was nothing wrong with this argument. If you have a problem with something else he said, I don’t see why you don’t address it there. I want to be clear, I’m not arguing in favor of systemic misandry, I’m just pointing out some faulty logic you are using. I like to see good debates on this subject, and I don’t like to see them get derailed into arguing over semantic choices when they don’t relate to the point being made.

          • CJ Janise

            You’re begging the question. You didn’t explain why they’re different beyond “because they are”.

    • MichaelT

      I’m amazed at how long this discussion has gone on because I made a joke. A bad joke, at that.

  • http://www.epcyclopedia.com Epcot Explorer’s Encyclopedia

    The problem is that there’s institutions (educational!) that promote courses of higher education where a required assignment is for the men in the class to think and write about their “inherent misogyny” and the ways they’ve mistreated women throughout their lives. No moreso than can those of the Islamic faith stop crazies from going on Jihad and giving them a bad name, than can Feminists stop these crazies from making people think there’s misandry run amuck in the world. There are people who are misandric (sp?) and shouting that it doesn’t exist or matter because “women have it so much worse” is just making the argument self-serving and biased beyond all rational stoic thought. If college courses in feminism started with “Yes, there are some man-hating women, but they’re crazy, just as much as the men who hate women…” there would be a whole lot less of this. The inability to compromise or admit there are problems on both ends of the spectrum is what pushes the other side further.

    • Brietta16

      I don’t think anybody is denying that men also suffer due issues related to sexism, the problem here is that there are people that are arguing that there is such a thing as systemic misandry despite the fact we live in a society that largely favors men. Again, a few examples do not compare to decades of discrimination against women. And in many instances the problems men face are a direct result of the society that was constructed to work under a double standard that favors men.

      Point is, there’s no such thing a systemic misandry.

      • http://www.epcyclopedia.com Epcot Explorer’s Encyclopedia

        And yet the standard reply is “..does not compare to decades of discrimination against women..” when considering discrimination against men. Doesn’t pretty much prove it exists? If I, you, anyone, can go anywhere and say “there’s atrocities against men!” and the immediate reply is “doesn’t compare!” “women have it worse!” “men are expected to be more resilient against such situations so that makes it somehow less wrong and I’m contributing to the problem by trivializing atrocities against others – any others!”

      • http://www.epcyclopedia.com Epcot Explorer’s Encyclopedia

        ..and just to make sure we’re on the same page..

        Perp 1 murders 1 person. Perp 2 murders 2 people. Which one is more wrong?

        • Project Dan

          You are not listening. Pull your fingers out of your ears for a moment and stop with the ‘La la la not listening’ routine.

          This is false equivalency 101. A guy having a tough day because some girl didn’t like him is not a systemic problem. Women at large being catcalled, groped, raped, and murdered every single day around the world IS a systemic problem that is caused by cultural sexism and misogyny. These things. Are not. The same.

          • http://www.epcyclopedia.com Epcot Explorer’s Encyclopedia

            See? You’re proving my point. You deny that THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO DO THE SAME THING TO MEN.

          • http://www.epcyclopedia.com Epcot Explorer’s Encyclopedia

            And to clarify, we are not talking a bad day. We are talking rape and murder. Because of misandry. Really, it happens.

          • Project Dan

            Not in an systemic way. You keep pretending as though a rando dude being killed because an individual hates men is the same as a culture that, by its very design, excuses the rape and murder of women. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING.

          • Project Dan

            And allow me to clarify, hot shot. A man does not fear being objectified as he walks down the street. A man does not worry that, if he wears a certain outfit, he will be raped. Because that’s not how our society works. That’s the difference. Men facing hatred because they are men is an outlier, women facing hatred because they are women is the rule.

          • Sheeve

            Lol, I love you Project Dan :)

          • Joey

            Do you mind if I ask how you justify saying that our culture is pro-raping/killing women? I could understand a more even-handed argument about how our culture is biased against women, and that leads to already-crazy and morally reprehensible individuals to think it’s okay to rape and/or kill their girlfriend or something to that effect. I just find that our culture is pretty pro-following laws. I’ve lived in the deep south my entire life; it may as well be the misogyny Mecca (behind actual Mecca, I guess), but nothing about the culture that I live in has influence me or anyone I know to consider raping and murdering a woman or sympathizing with someone who does.

          • Project Dan

            We shame rape survivors constantly. We tell them they were asking for it, we accuse them of lying, we question whether what happened to them was really ‘rape rape’.

            Any society that places the blame on a rape victim rather than the rapist is pro rape.

          • Joey

            Well, that’s a matter of criminal defense. Defense lawyers are required to use any legal means to cast doubt on the accusation levied against their client. Because there isn’t always physical evidence, whether the accuser is lying is always a legitimate question. You can’t just automatically convict everyone accused of a crime.

            As for the “rape rape,” I’m not exactly sure what that means, but I know that buyer’s remorse is a thing. I can’t say how rampant it is, but I know people who’ve slept with people in certain circumstances (non-coercive ones) that they wouldn’t have normally, and regretted it afterward. There are people out there who would respond to that by accusing the other person of rape.

            I don’t think our society blames victims so much as it doesn’t assume people are rapists the moment they’ve been accused.

          • Project Dan

            We’re not talking about criminal defense lawyers. We’re talking about a systemic problem where, when a woman is raped, our primary societal knee-jerk response is to question if she had it coming and if she was really raped in the first place.

            Which you exemplified so perfectly by immediately turning around and claiming that women cry rape when what they really mean is ‘regret’ as though it is the rule rather than the extremely rare exception.

          • Joey

            Where the hell did I say it was the rule rather than the exception? I said it was a thing, and I said I don’t know how widespread it is.

          • Project Dan

            Would you like to know how widespread fake rape is — it’s virtually nonexistent.

            You brought up false accusations of rape to suggest that our society is simply approaching rape from a place of due process. And that’s a completely false premise.

            But people do use these rare exceptions as an excuse to accuse victims of lying, even when there’s overwhelming evidence to the contrary. And the reason that happens is because we exist in a misogynistic rape culture which has a profoundly negative impact on all women.

          • Joey

            I would like to know what information you have about buyer’s remorse that I don’t. I’m not trying to put you on the spot, but could you provide a reference for that assertion?

            You keep referring to “people” and “our society” in very broad terms, but unless you have some data that I don’t know about, you’re either generalizing from individuals or just pointing out pinpoint examples. I used the judicial system as an example because it’s less nebulous and more quantifiable than “people” or “society”. I also think the positions of our judicial system hold a lot of weight on how rape victims are treated.

          • SarahJesness

            To add on to what you’re saying, Dan: compare the treatment of rape victims to the treatment of people who say they were robbed at gunpoint. The person who says s/he was robbed COULD be lying, but that won’t be the first thought of the people s/he tells the story to.

          • Joey

            I made a specific effort not to say exactly what you just said I did. I don’t think it’s the rule, I think it’s a few immoral individuals, but I have no information to support it one way or the other.

        • Adam R. Charpentier

          Just gonna jump in here.

          Why did they murder them?

    • Project Dan

      You don’t have to be crazy to commit acts of misogyny. People, even feminists, make mistakes, especially men who are unlikely to always be aware of their privilege. That’s why these courses you mentioned are designed to teach men when they are hurting women — because they often don’t even realize they’re doing it in the first place.

    • Getter Go

      Which is why he qualified what he was talking about as systematic misandry everything single time he used the word.

  • anon

    Yeah, it’s just like that scary red haired lady said: “IF THE MRAS WOULD JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP AND LISTEN, YOU’LL SEE THAT WE BOTH WANT THE SAME THING. FOR MEN TO ADMIT THAT THEY’RE SCUM AND THAT WOMEN ARE MUCH SUPERIOR. THAN WE COULD GET SOME FUCKING EQUALITY AROUND HERE.

    • Project Dan

      You’re not very good at this.

      • anon

        That’s what they all say. Perhaps you do not know to what I refer. That is fine.

  • http://www.thedungeoncrawl.blogspot.com/ Sean Samonas

    That is amazingly well put. I seriously never understand when I get into conversations with people who try to defend men’s rights. It’s just amazingly stupid and selfish. Every argument they make is some of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard. I seriously had a guy argue with me that male privilege doesn’t exist, because “BULLSH*T! Anyone who uses the term “male privilege” has instantly invalidated anything they have to say. Do you honestly think that men have any privilege in today’s society?”

    Seriously…he then broke it down in more absurdity, though my favorite was “Who can be drafted? Men. Women can’t be drafted.” when I called him out on how stupid that argument was, his reply was “False. The rules were created to prevent women from sacrificing their lives because their lives are deemed of greater worth. All that would be required for the continued survival of the human race is 1 man, but more than 1 woman is needed. It was decided a LONG time ago that women, being more important to the survival of the species, could never be forced to sacrifice their lives in defense of a nation, or to safeguard the life of a man in a life threatening situation. This is why the “women and children first” philosophy also exists”.

    I could keep posting his stuff because it was so mind-boggling stupid, but I’ll refrain.

    • Adam R. Charpentier

      What’s incorrect about that example, exactly?

      • http://www.thedungeoncrawl.blogspot.com/ Sean Samonas

        If you are referring to the draft argument, it is because of the following. While he is correct in the statement that women are excluded from the draft, he is incorrect as to the intention behind it.

        Yes, it may have been because their lives were deemed more important, but the reason was not because women made men do that. Men in charge made that decision out of an incorrect assumption that women are inferior to men and therefore incapable of defending themselves or fighting effectively.

        • Adam R. Charpentier

          Men that grew up in the system described in the example, believing that men were less important than women. So, what’s incorrect about the example?

          • http://www.thedungeoncrawl.blogspot.com/ Sean Samonas

            Him deriving the conclusion that because of men only draft laws male privilege doesn’t exist.

          • Adam R. Charpentier

            Ah…yeah, okay. I somehow missed that being the thesis. Though I think his example does outline a problem.

  • smg7320

    Can Anna Torv be the Doctor, with Joshua Jackson, John Noble, and Jasika Nicole as companions? Please?

  • Brandon Oosterhoff

    Alright, probably going to take flak for this, and really don’t want to get lumped in with the MRA who are just using it as an excuse to attack feminism, but I think it needs to be said: systemic misandry does exist, and your comparison example is a strawman.
    Now, I am not going to argue that systemic misogyny is a much more wide spread, and much more serious issue, as it obviously is. My scale is comparing societal misandry to a cut on your palm (sometimes annoying when you try to do certain things, and very occaisionally festering into something serious), whereas systemic misogyny is a stab wound to the stomach (affecting almost everything you do, and easily capable of becoming life threatening).
    However, to deny that some parts of our society do systematically discriminate against men is simply false, and it weakens the thrust of your otherwise valid argument. The hypothetical man who got his feelings hurt because the woman crossed the street, is obviously not a victim in any meaningful sense of the word, but consider instead a male victim of spousal/partner abuse (esp. in a heterosexual relationship). While men are considerably less likely to become victims of spousal abuse, those who are find it much more difficult to get access to the sort of help (legal, practical, or psychological) than abused women do. Now granted, other discriminatory aspects of society may make it easier for our hypothetical male to flee this abusive situation (higher likelihood of access to financial resources, etc), but does that excuse the dismissive behaviour of the police and social aid workers, who would dutifully assist a woman in the same situation? A few other catagories, ranging from the personally devastating (the treatment of male rape victims), to the merely banal (social disrespect towards men in traditional feminine occupations), do exist.
    In sum: I am not calling our society equal. I am not advocating a halt to feminist progress. The fight has not yet been won. I am merely asking that we do not dismiss our opponents arguements with strawmen, and by so doing, sacrifice any chance of actually convincing them of our point, instead alienating them with our disregard.
    Also, I for one would love to see a female Doctor.

    • Project Dan

      Men do face some systemic problems, just not as a result of misandry.

      To the contrary, the way we hurt women ultimately also has some negative effects on men, such as the ones you specified. We have this systemic problem where women who are raped, for example, are often shamed to the point of not reporting their sexual assault, even though rape is against the law. As a result, we focus our attention on passing legislation and being vocal about turning the tide on the culture of rape against women in our society.

      So, actually, what you’ve described is a consequence of misogyny, not misandry. We have to focus so much attention on women being raped because that’s a systemic problem. Men being raped is not a systemic problem so it gets less attention.

      What I’m saying is, if you want to help male rape victims, you should help end misogyny.

      • Genevieve LeBlanc

        Exactly. In the specific situation mentioned, it’s the idea that women are weak and powerless. Therefore, a man cannot be abused by a woman because he is so much more powerful than her. Obviously, neither of these things are true, but you can clearly see how a misogynistic belief is negatively impacting men. It’s the same thing when MRAs discuss the fact that men have to work the most dangerous jobs, cannot openly express their emotions, and lose custody battles more often than women. It’s because women are seen as weak and in need of protection, being emotionally reactive is seen as an innately feminine behaviour and therefore inappropriate for men, and women are seen as natural caregivers who should fulfill that role in their child’s life. It just goes to show that misogyny is hurting everyone.

        • SarahJesness

          Oy, yeah. Once something gets labelled a “female trait” in our society it becomes inappropriate for a man to express it. A woman can express a “male” trait with less stigma because it’s seen as taking a step up, while a man doing “female” roles is viewed as taking a step down. It’s like, ew, why would he want to be a woman? Women are so stupid and weak! NO GURLZ ALLOWED

        • Anthony J. Rand

          Not to mention that in all those cases it’s not women putting these men down. When a man has to work a dangerous job, that’s because the man in charge won’t hire women, not because the women in his life refuse to work that job. You won’t find a lot of feminists who think men should stay out of the kitchen, bottle their emotions, and not be allowed custody of their kids.

          • 37 Pieces Of Ric Flair

            You will, however, find a lot of feminists who would love lucrative careers in the high-paying jobs with great pensions and health benefits, despite the dangerous risks. The risk of danger has never stopped women from doing anything that I can tell. Women thrive in dangerous occupations when sexist men take their boots off our necks.

            Men act like women never face danger at work. It’s not like homicide isn’t the number one killer of women in the workplace. Oh, wait…

    • Roman Monaghan

      That’s another issue: you call them “our opponents.” This implies Feminism and MRA are fighting for opposite things, which you yourself imply simply isn’t true. We’re all fighting for the same thing, equal treatment of all human beings, but simply focusing on the road of the battle that personally effects us more.

  • Eliot Hochberg

    Dan;

    I appreciate your detailing what is an obvious scenario in which a woman feels like she may be in danger. Guess what? Men can feel that, too. Maybe not from a woman – maybe usually from other men. But it definitely happens, it has happened to me. Thus, your example, while interesting and something that has certainly happened, doesn’t really tell the whole story.

    You see, the issue isn’t that women find themselves in danger. It’s that when that danger is discussed, it is discussed in terms of ALL MEN, not just criminals or those bigger than them. Meanwhile, in the same breath, women are said to want to have everything equal, because women are the same as men.

    It can’t possibly be both ways. It just can’t.

    And because it can’t, the men who aren’t rapists, who don’t automatically think “that woman is a bitch for crossing the street”, they feel like they are being accused simply because of their genitals.

    You know, when I walk down the street at night, and I see someone ahead of me, I make some kind of sound, until I know they see me there, so they can choose what to do. But maybe I’m unique in that.

    More to the point, while I agree that men who whine about the idea that Dr. Who might be cast as a woman are shallow and ignorant, I rail against the idea that there isn’t misandry in the world. Perhaps because you have experienced life as a woman, you can’t see it.

    Just watch most commercials or TV sitcoms featuring a male. Usually, they are incapable of raising children, cleaning a house, dressing themselves, and if they are, it’s some miracle, or they’re evil. Because nice men don’t get manicures. Only villains do.

    And maybe, as a man, you never went out into the world to try and date a woman. Because that is probably the single most degrading process you can go through. I’ve actually had a woman say to me “oh, don’t stop being a man now” when I revealed an insecurity. Or had a woman completely ignore that I existed when I tried to introduce myself to her in a bar. And yes, should could see and hear me, as she later acknowledged.

    I know, it’s very difficult for a woman to wait by the phone, hoping that a guy will call. Infinitely more difficult, I expect, then having a woman tell you that she’s happy to go out with you, then string you along for hours one the day of the date, only to let you know 6 hours later that she just isn’t going to make it. Then you find out she had no intention of going out with you, she just didn’t want to “hurt your feelings”.

    I don’t know about you, but to me that is as psychologically damaging as being objectified. It’s worse, because at least if you are sexualized, you have something to hang your self worth on. When you get dissed by a woman, it’s usually because you talked to them, and they just didn’t like the way you did it.

    • De

      You want a humiliating experience, try being an unattractive woman. I’ve been asked out once and the guy’s pick-up line included “You could be a four if you tried a little harder.” I’ve had guys laugh at me, pick apart my appearance or just walk off when I’ve tried to talk to them. Not because I was asking them out, just because I needed to talk to them for class or something. If you’re a female born with a malformed jaw you will never get any man anywhere to so much as speak to you. Degradation and humiliation are in no way gender related, they are experienced by all human beings alike.

      • Eliot Hochberg

        Agreed. There are jerks of every gender and transgender. I’m sorry you’ve experienced that. I don’t know of any real solution. I can’t claim that I would choose to pick someone I wasn’t attracted to, although in high school I got it into my head (although thankfully never acted on it) that I had a responsibility to ask out girls I didn’t find attractive. I say thankfully because if you date someone from the negative, it always ends up badly.

        My only advice, as if you wanted any, is that old chestnut: confidence. It’s the only way I’ve ever surmounted my own issues, and I have met men and women who, by all accounts, were not what most would consider attractive, but who rose above it. It’s the hardest road.

        Finally, to your point: it’s one thing to not be attracted to another person. It’s quite another to be a dick about it, and I hope that guy gets his eventually.

  • CreatureSH

    To everybody who commented on this with some variation of “But men have it bad, too”:
    You are the fucking problem.

    • anon

      Denying that there are such things as men’s rights issues is part of the problem.

      I don’t see how saying that men have issues with sexism in society is tantamount to saying that women don’t. We all do, and denying that is the case one way or the other is not productive.

      • CreatureSH

        Your brave anonymous contribution is noted. As ignorant. Now go and roam free on the fields and in the waters, child.

        • anon

          So… not bothering to listen to what I have to say than. Feminism: WE’RE ALWAYS RIGHT AND EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES IS IGNORANT. Gotta love it.

          • CreatureSH

            No. You are the one not listening. The discrimination of women is very clearly systemic, endemic and institutionalized. Discrimination of men is rare and is, in the huge majority of cases (watch out, this will blow your mind ) still rooted in misogyny.

          • anon

            Very clearly? Very foggy if you ask me. But here, take a look: http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/i-need-the-mens-rights-movement-because/

            Discrimination of men is not nearly as rare as you think. You can say that it’s rooted in misogyny, but that doesn’t mean it’s not there.

          • CreatureSH

            I’m supposed to be impressed by an article brought forth by a site infamous for bias and misinformation? That’s like looking for facts about evolution at the society for creationism.

          • anon

            Or you could read it and answer what it says. That works too.

            “I’m supposed to be impressed by an article brought forth by a site infamous for bias and misinformation?”

            So than I shouldn’t read Jezebel?

          • CreatureSH

            False equivalence.

          • anon

            Not at all. Jezebel is infamous for bias and misinformation.

            Seriously, we’re really going to go on a site’s reputation for when we’re going to read it? That’s ridiculous.

            Also, I can make a false equivalence accusation too. Comparing AVFM to say, Answers in Genesis is a false equivalence. Yay mere assertions!

          • CreatureSH

            You will note that I did not give a specific example because I really don’t have the fucking time to make a nitpick-safe reply for someone whose mind is to biased and self-satisfied to be changed, anyway.

          • anon

            Seriously, even bloody TV Tropes realizes that sexism against men is a thing that’s quite pervasive in society. Denying that it isn’t is extremely unhelpful:

            http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DoubleStandard

          • CreatureSH

            Ah, yes, TV Tropes. A bastion of journalistic integrity and neutral observation.

          • anon
          • CreatureSH

            Dito, buddy.

          • anon

            Except not really. I recognize that sexism against women is widespread throughout society. It’s obvious. And only an idiot would deny it. I also recognize that sexism against men is widespread throughout society. Yet you don’t seem to want to even entertain that as a possibility.

          • CreatureSH

            Except for the part where I said that discrimination against men exists, but is rare. But that’s not enough for you, is it? You want to hear that men have it just as bad as women. But that’s not the case, and I won’t tell you what you want to hear.

          • anon

            Except for the fact it’s not rare, but you don’t want to even look at the evidence.

          • CreatureSH

            It’s much rarer and a whole fucking lot less severe on average. If you can’t see that, there is no point in discussing this with you.

          • anon

            So you would say that society thinking rape against men is funny and not to be taken seriously, that society thinking all men are after sex no matter what they’re doing, that society thinking it is irresponsible for men to take care of children, that the mutilation of boy’s genitals at birth is widespread, institutionalized, and regular practice and being against it is seen as antisemitism, that society views men as disposable, that if a woman changes her mind after having sex, society views it as rape, and many many other things, you would say that all of that is less severe… somehow?

          • CreatureSH

            You are not looking deep enough. Why is a raped man not taken seriously? Because he is in a role that is usually reserved for women in the mind of the public. A man being “womanly” is seen as ridiculous and laughable because there is still a very prevalent idea that women are worth less than men and any man who is like them is worthless. (That’s a huge factor when it comes to homophobia, as well).

            Society seeing men as naturally sex-obsessed is something that harms women more than men, believe it or not. Because this train of thought is employed in shaming female rape victims. The idea there is that the man is just being a man and couldn’t help himself, while it was the woman’s responsibility to stop him. I sincerely hope that I don’t have to tell you how THAT harms women.

            I disagree with circumcision, as well, but that is not so much a matter of discrimination as it was an institutionalized consequence of anti-sexuality movements of the early 20th century. Circumcision was introduced as a means to prevent masturbation. The assumption there was that only men do have an active agency in sexuality, and that women are too passive to masturbate. You see that sexism against women does play a role once again here. Also, it is important to note that there are regions of the world where circumcision IS being performed on women, and it is a lot more severe than on men. (They cut off a whole lot more than just a bit of skin in those cases)

            I don’t know where you get this “men are disposable” thing.

            As for “she changes her mind = rape”… This is a falsehood. The number of false rape accusations is dwarfed to an extreme degree by the number of actual rapists who are never convicted.

          • anon

            Men are disposable. As in men are sent off to war to die, women are thought to need protection. In media, you see men the ones who get killed to fill up time. Essentially, women are inherently valuable just for being a woman, men need to earn that value before they are thought of as valuable. This is rather obvious when you look at the “women and children first” idea.

          • CreatureSH

            That’s rooted in misogyny once again. The concept of “women and children” go first is based on the idea that women (and children) are helpless, weak and can’t fend for themselves while strong, intelligent men can hold out a little longer.

          • Adam R. Charpentier

            This is what happens every single time two people with clashing ideologies “attempt” to dialogue. Rather than discuss their differing opinions, they argue semantics, about where they get their sources of information, condescend to one another, name bash, pick apart grammar (hat’s off, I don’t see you two doing that yet), but it leaves me feeling pretty cold to either cause. I start to think that everytime someone adds their name to a ledger for a cause, a chute should open up beneath them, dropping them out of the problem they perpetuate by complaining so damn much, refusing to speculate about the other side, yet providing no real world solutions that, if you think about it for five goddamn seconds without your pulse racing, would never work because most people don’t care, have bigger problems, disagree on the simple basis that you’re irate and that makes them uncomfortable, and you’ll spend hundreds of years getting a majority to agree. If you’re fine with that timetable, cool. If not, if you really want things changed, do what always seems to work throughout human history: start a war. In the meantime, I’m trying to decide whether your back and forth makes you sound more like children or politicians. In one way, it reminds me of exactly how children think, but in another we just saw a real world representation of this shit with the filibuster last night and all of the bickering about rules that went on. Heck, the very nature of a filibuster is ridiculous. People are so thick-headed that the only way to defeat their stupid bill is to play games. It’s scary how borderline the difference is. I’m not directing this at either one of you in particular, so I’ll post to both. …although, heck, I’m not really saying stop. It’s a pretty good show. Continue being as entertaining as an episode of Friends.

          • anon

            I could say the exact same thing about you, couldn’t I? This entire time you’ve ignored anything I’ve had to say, when I’ve answered you. I’ve been trying to have a conversation with you, but all you’ve done is called me names.

          • Adam R. Charpentier

            This is what happens every single time two people with clashing ideologies “attempt” to dialogue. Rather than discuss their differing opinions, they argue semantics, about where they get their sources of information, condescend to one another, name bash, pick apart grammar (hat’s off, I don’t see you two doing that yet), but it leaves me feeling pretty cold to either cause. I start to think that everytime someone adds their name to a ledger for a cause, a chute should open up beneath them, dropping them out of the problem they perpetuate by complaining so damn much, refusing to speculate about the other side, yet providing no real world solutions that, if you think about it for five goddamn seconds without your pulse racing, would never work because most people don’t care, have bigger problems, disagree on the simple basis that you’re irate and that makes them uncomfortable, and you’ll spend hundreds of years getting a majority to agree. If you’re fine with that timetable, cool. If not, if you really want things changed, do what always seems to work throughout human history: start a war. In the meantime, I’m trying to decide whether your back and forth makes you sound more like children or politicians. In one way, it reminds me of exactly how children think, but in another we just saw a real world representation of this shit with the filibuster last night and all of the bickering about rules that went on. Heck, the very nature of a filibuster is ridiculous. People are so thick-headed that the only way to defeat their stupid bill is to play games. It’s scary how borderline the difference is. I’m not directing this at either one of you in particular, so I’ll post to both of you.

          • CaptainCalvinCat

            Anon, please – relax.

            Yes, there might be some misandrist people out there, I am not denying that. However… this ist just SOME people…

            Some feminists are nutjobs. That is true. Yes, there are some people out there, some feminists, who are totally whacked.Some feminists are nutjobs, yes. But not all of them. Just
            because there are some women (and some men) going around, calling
            themselves “feminists” and saying that women are superior (although I
            believe are stronger, when it comes to deal with physical and emotional
            pain), not all feminists are like that…

            I am a feminits. I am not yelling, that all men
            must die and are rapists…

            Because a) that’d be pretty stupid of me, hence I am a guy , and B)
            feminism isn’t about female supremacy, it is still about gender
            equality… is this goal fulfilled? No. So – continue to fight the good
            fight.

            Yes, some men have it bad, too – however that does not change the problem, that more women than men are having it bad.

      • Melodia E. McIntyre

        B/C Women are fighting 100 problems and when men come up to us while we complain about our 100 problems and they say “BUT WHAT ABOUT MY ONE PROBLEM?” It’s like stealing the conversation and making it about them – just like everything else. Sorry you have 1 problem.

      • CaptainCalvinCat

        I’m asking myself when you, Anon, read in CreatureSH’s post (this one: “To everybody who commented on this with some variation of “But men have it bad, too”:
        You are the fucking problem.”) read that this person is denying, that men have rights?

  • anon

    Actually, worst case scenario for the man, the man could be raped and/or killed by that woman. You can make up scenarios all you want, that doesn’t change the facts of the matter. Would it be permissible for a man to walk across the street if he’s scared by a woman?

    It’s like Schrodinger’s rapist. I take issue with this idea that all men are automatically capable of rape and all women are helpless little flowers that need to be protected. What if we did this for black people? Hey black guy, I know you’re a nice guy and all, but I’m going to go to the other side of the street when I see you, just in case you try to stab me.

    • CreatureSH

      Your “black man” scenario doesn’t hold up. It draws its potential outrageout of the fact that black people are a minority that lives with social drawbacks due to their treatment from the majority.
      Men in general, on the other hand, are the clear majority when it comes to the dynamics of society. Things are marketed to men by default. Most positions of power are held by men.

      You are putting the reality of the situation upside down.

      • anon

        I’m saying that judging people based on anything they can’t help, whether gender or race, is discrimination.

        • CreatureSH

          And I’m saying that not all things are equal, context exists and occasional hurt egos are not even remotely comparable to having to live with a constant undercurrent of fear and humiliation.

        • Raphaella Vale

          A woman crossing the street is like telling your children not to talk to strangers. Of course not every stranger is intending to abduct your child, most aren’t, but it is still better to be on the safe side. I don’t assume every man is a rapist, but there are rapists and you can’t tell them apart from the nice guys by looking, so it’s better to be careful around strangers.

  • Claes Holmberg

    I don’t know how to put this nicely, but I think you may be in over your head here. (caveat: I have never read any of the MRA “literature”, and I’m sure they are far worse than this post, but that doesn’t give you a free pass to spout nonsense).

    For one, your example doesn’t really pertain to the issue, as Brandon Oesterhoff pointed out. It’s more of a category mistake than a strawman, really – you seem to be conflating feelings and rights. Your experience is horrifying and – I’m sure – typical, but what are you trying to say exactly? That rape is a political problem not only in it’s own right, but also to the extent that your fear (legitimate or not) of being raped affects your day? Surely not!

    Also, I don’t understand why you assume that gender issues would be the same across the board. If you recognize that there is sexual difference, it stands to reason that different rights are important to different kinds of people.

    Ironically, your argument ends up as a form of cissexism: a “true” woman being the frail object of desire, and the “true” man a burly aggressor. How does a 7 ft tall transgender woman fit your narrative? She may face even harsher systemic discrimination than her cisgendered, more sexually vulnerable, female counterpart, despite enjoying the privilege of being born a man (difficulties getting custody of her children because she is technically the father, for instance). Intersectionality is a very complicated field, but you cannot stay within the white, middle-class, decidely american echo-chamber and expect to be taken seriously by academic feminists, just because the MRAs also are ignorant of their white, middle-class, male privilege.

    You blindly join in the “battle of the sexes” discourse as well, which is just silly. Civil rights struggles, labour rights fights, and womens rights issues are not necessarily zero sum games. Men don’t necessarily benefit from “rape culture” just because women suffer from it, and alleviating their suffering will not cost men anything (except, of course, the rapists). Addressing the problems that otherwise privileged men face (low life expectancy, and educational discrimination primarily) while at the same time criticising the patriarchy is perfectly possible.

    The funny thing is that I agree with your conclusion: there is no institutional misandry, but that certainly doesn’t follow from your example. I’m not sure how to disprove a myth anyway, and I suspect that may be the reason for your outrage (and outrageously poor attempt at dispelling the myth).

    Allow me to be technical for a moment: you cannot disprove anything by positive example, unless you have a pre-established principle of exclusion (A v B; A; ~B). If I were to dismiss the misandry-myth, I probably would argue for a so-called “default and challenge”, that is that patriarchy theory is the default to which MRA-misandry-theory (matriarchy theory?) is the challenge (and thus has the burden of proof on its shoulders). Food for thought, I guess.

    • anon

      Would you say that MGM is institutional misandry?

    • Project Dan

      I sighted my own, personal experience. I never said all women have an identical experience, but that similar ones do exist across the board.

      My point is that there is no male equivalent for such a situation, but we behave as though a dude being sad that a woman wanted to avoid him is somehow in the same ballpark as a woman potentially being raped and/or killed. It’s not.

      My understanding of systemic sexism, misogyny, and rape culture comes through my own experiences and I find that most men’s lack of understanding for said same comes from their own lack of experience/unwillingness to empathize with women. So explaining a common situation from the perspective of both a man and a woman is the best I can do to explain how misogyny is systemic but misandry is not.

    • Roman Monaghan

      Sadly, a lot of people DO claim that fear of being raped affects their day. This is less misogyny and more lack of self confidence, in my view, but some claim it to be true!

  • Gizensha

    Wait, people actually notice that the person in front of them has crossed the street? I mean, unless you’re anticipating needing to weave past them because your pace is faster or admiring there dog or whatever, why would you even register that? Or presume that you’re the reason they crossed the street if you did notice, for that matter (And even if it is, that they’re suspicious of you rather than just not really wanting to deal with people right now; many a times I’ve crossed a street earlier than I was intending to because someone was walking towards me and I really didn’t want to deal with the social interactions involved in walking past someone on a street at that point, and especially not risk trying to pass each other in the same direction resulting in that silly little ‘passing each other in the street’ dance)

    More seriously response – This sort of thing is useful to read, even if it doesn’t tell me anything new.

  • dezzmont

    Hello Dan. I happen to be a feminist, and not associated with any MRA movement at all, and I have one thing to say to you.

    You are disgusting.

    I have lost all respect for you Dan, and am actually pretty shocked you posted something so mind numbingly stupid in a public space and attached your name to it. While you seem to be trying to defend feminism, you only hurt it. You are the strawman feminist here. You are the one trying to promote a victim culture. You are the problem everyone should be fighting against.

    Are you actually going to argue that our culture doesn’t have intense elements of misandry when a woman can literally ruin a man’s life by just accusing him of rape, something that has been becoming more and more common as of late because of the very concept of a “rape culture” that you are promoting? Even when police clear the man of all charges? Even when the police point out the woman is dangerously unstable?

    Are you going to say that our culture doesn’t have deeply ingrained elements of man hate when there are laws on file that result in men getting arrested when they call the police when they are physically abused and assaulted as a matter of course?

    Are you really dumb enough to try to deny how intensely wrong it is that sexual violence against men is celebrated in an open and public manner?

    Are you actually going to and say that the fact men point out that things are clearly not equal, and more to the point everyone is devalued and hurt by inequality, including men, “hate women” and try to prove it by saying “men can rape women” despite rape being a pretty equal opportunity crime and not even the main point of feminism?

    Your moronic hypothetical about how “The worst a man might have to deal with is people think he is a rapist” is, in fact, spot on in some ways, but you are blatantly and disgustingly fallacious in the idea that “People think I am a rapist” is a minor thing. One of my best friends had his life utterly ruined by the systemic misandry in a very real way pretty real way because someone played the rape card

    And do you think men are not raped and abused by women? Because if you even bothered to look into it even a little bit, you would realize how utterly wrong you are about pretty much everything.

    These crimes do not seem to discriminate like you do. While rape does happen significantly more often to women, the number isn’t as high as you think, and when it comes to physical abuse the data actually shows more and more that this proves that women are just as capable of hate as men are.

    So, you can keep screaming about how “Misandry is totally not real because guys like we could rape women!” but when there are movements calling for the castration of all men, and while there are laws on file that protect abusers more than the abused, while people initiate sexual violence and are celebrated on national TV, I will have to say, no, shut up, misandry is and always has been just as real a thing as misogyny. And every time someone like you comes out of the woodwork and clearly starts spouting insanity about how “Men are raping our women and because men can rape men are rapists and always have the power” you hurt our cause, and associate us more and more with the misandric movements that do and have existed, and less with the concept of egalitarianism, the idea that everyone should be equal.

    You are the reason feminism has become a dirty word and why I can’t talk to my friends about how “maybe the fact our culture promotes gender roles pretty much non-stop” with my friends without being associated with close minded moronic extremists like yourself. You are the type of person people point to when me, and people like me, try to speak up about legitimate problems that exist for the feminist movement. You are the reason my best friend, despite it literally being impossible for him to have committed the crime he was accused of had his life utterly ruined by a false accusation of rape despite it being immediately obvious to anyone that he was clearly afraid of his own and the woman in question’s life and was trapped in a horrific abusive relationship.

    So YOU need to shut the #$@% up about systemic misandry, and whatever horrible “personal experiences” you have that have given you such a disturbingly twisted view of both women’s rights and the culture of hostility you are promoting from all parties. The fact some idiots equated the idea of a female Doctor with the idea of systemic misandry is not an excuse for you to go write something this mind numbingly stupid and full of overt logical holes about something this intense and important. Or to belittle very real things that are happening today because you are angry at some stupid people. The concept that “Men can rape women and women can be afraid of being raped” does not, and in no way counters “Men can never be systematically treated worse in a pretty monstrous way like women can, because I don’t understand how hate doesn’t discriminate and universal.”

    • Project Dan

      So let’s be clear — because sometimes men are raped (overwhelmingly by other men, by the way) and since you feel your friend was falsely accused of rape, systemic misandry is real and I’m a bad feminist?

      No.

      You accuse me of perpetuating a victim culture. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am expecting us to identify inequality wherever it exists and then say, loudly, ‘NO MORE’. Things are not equal between men and women.

      We don’t live in a culture that takes pleasure in violence against men. That’s a complete fabrication. You are using the exception as if it proves the rule. It doesn’t. In fact, that’s all you’ve done throughout your entire commentary.

      If your friend was wrongfully accused of sexual assault, I’m sorry — but that does not prove systemic misandry exists. Again, you are using an exception as though it is the rule.

      In fact, I take serious issue with you trotting out your friend’s experience to protect a rape culture that directly contributed to the situation he now finds himself in.

      Cultural misogyny hurts all women. Sometimes it’s in obvious ways and other times in insidiously subtle ways. Cultural misogyny often hurts the LGBT community, most notably gay men who are the victims of violence for behaving in ways deemed effeminate. Cultural misogyny can even, on occasion, hurt straight men. Your friend sounds like he fits into this category.

      You want to come back to me with actual men’s issues? Go for it. They absolutely exist. But systemic misandry is not one of them, because there is no hatred of men embedded into every aspect of our culture.

      Or you could continue calling me an idiot and shouting me down. Up to you.

      • dezzmont

        “Exception that proves the rule?”

        Do you even know what that means? Because it doesn’t mean what you think it means. Calling it an exception that proves the rule is apt An exception that proves the rule is when the exception signifies there is an exception, an inequality or loophole that allows something normally disallowed to be allowed in that case. For instance, “No parking 9-5″ is the exception to the rule that one can park there outside those times. Another example is “Sexual violence, as a rule, is not celebrated, unless it is committed against a man”

        When Catherine Becker cut off her husband’s penis and how on the TV show “The Talk” this act was celebrated as “Empowering” proves the exception.

        Or how about when that woman from Meshchovsk kidnapped a burglar and held him hostage for three days, raping him. That is again, the “Exception that proves the rule.”

        And please, by all means take “serious issue” at me touting out my friends horrible predicament as proof that, no, things are unequal and that maybe wholly associating the problems women face today in terms of equality is rape. I absolutely do not care. At the end of the day you applying his problem to combating misogyny, because it is true.

        At the end of the day, his problems came about entirely because of the pushback against misogyny. People being overtly and intensely hostile to anyone victimising women. If our culture wasn’t misogynist, he probably would have been fine. I am in complete agreement to that.

        That does not mean people actively persecuting this man, solely because he was a man and because a woman accused him of something he clearly didn’t do, was not based entirely on the fact he was a man being accused, an act of extreme prejudice and misandry deeply ingrained into our culture.

        I will even go so far as to say he, as a man, had a net gain in life and privilege for being a man. But that doesn’t matter. This isn’t a math problem of who has it better. If it was, your thesis of “Men have no right to complain about systemic misandry” would be 100% correct. But it is not. This isn’t a math problem, this is a complex issue about social justice. When you try to deny the overt nature that ultimately unfair things happen to everyone perpetuated on a cultural basis, you hurt everyone.

        It is utterly impossible for me to overtly prove that any given issue is representative of systemic misandry, when you seem to be dismissing them either as “Isolated incidents” or misusing “Exception that proves the rule” and seem to be defining systemic misogyny by a different set of standards than misandry, or trying to say that any form of prejudice against men ACTUALLY is prejudiced against women through some insane logical judo that doesn’t actually make any sense, though I can bring up, again, the fact that sexual violence against men is framed differently by the media and leads to things like the idea that men are somehow not entirely equal victims of domestic violence.

        But that is beside the point, I didn’t really post to try to convince you of anything, I am just here to say that for someone who has said so many smart and intelligent things I respected about representation and gender, you really just burnt it all away by going off on an insane rant like this. For defending overt formal fallacies in the comments because they supported your argument. For arguing from the position that the conclusion must be true before even making an argument. For equating all inequality that women are faced with as “Because they have to fear being raped.” For ignoring very real things that actively hurt everyone, despite recognizing that any form of hate hurts everyone.

        I just am disappointed someone as seemingly smart and on the ball as you suddenly shouted “Hey guys! Gender inequality belongs solely to women! I am going to move goalposts and argue and dicker in the comments defending people blatantly using terrible logic like a child shouting over valid points.”

        • Project Dan

          None of what you just cited proves that misandry is systemic. Again, citing rare outlier examples proves nothing except how much more common violence against women is by comparison.

          But many of these problems *can* be attributed to systemic misogyny. That is my point. Not that men face no issues in the world, but that a cultural hatred of men is not one of them. It just isn’t.

          You can call me any name you like. Call me insane, say I’m hurting the feminist movement, ignore every fact that exists because you’re angry about what happened to your friend. You will still be just as wrong.

          • dezzmont

            Your argument boils down to “No, 50% of all domestic violence victims isn’t true, violence against men is rare and not at all actually more common than the reverse, any systemic discrimination against men is ACTUALLY systemic discrimination against women, and my personal favorite ‘You are just wrong and I won’t explain why or give any sort of standards or definitions of what would prove me wrong because you are wrong.”

            I am not going to try to persuade you or debate because you do not want the truth. You do not want to recognize things that happen every day to both men and women. You do not want a dialogue. You are a preaching radical who is using overt logical fallacies, ignoring anything they can’t retort to, creating a nebulous non-argument built entirely around the premise rather than any evidence that can be attacked and disproven, which is based on something most sociologists will say isn’t just untrue, but impossible due to how inequality works.

            If you actually are still the decent person who wrote those old articles, define your terms.

            Give me definitions of your terms. Give me a cut off of how many high profile cases and how many factual and completely objective inequalities people face to prove that systemic inequality exists, not just systemic misandry or misogyny.

          • Project Dan

            I’m not completely unwilling to continue this debate with you, but it’s nearly 4am where I live and I’m spent for tonight. Just because I sit on my duff and write for a living, doesn’t mean I don’t still need to catch a couple of winks, ya know?

            One thing I can’t keep doing, though, is sit here and act like you hurling personal insults at me is okay. I don’t mind that you disagree with me, even vehemently so (that’s often where the best learning moments come from), but calling me crazy, stupid, and a bad feminist? If we’re going to even consider continuing, those jabs at me as a human being have got to stop. Fair?

      • Egalitarian

        “So let’s be clear — because sometimes men are raped (overwhelmingly by other men, by the way) “.

        Actually, if you properly define rape to include being “made to penetrate”, women are a significant percentage of rapists, and the majority of male victims were raped by women. The problem is, most rape stats use a definition that requires the victim to be penetrated, so if a woman forces a man to have PIV sex, it’s not considered rape.

        This article has a bunch of studies showing that women commit sexual assault far more often than commonly believed: http://freethoughtblogs.com/hetpat/2013/09/04/the-startling-facts-on-female-sexual-aggression/

  • SleeZee Lyers

    Hey Dan, that was a whole bunch of tl;dr.

    But fuck off.

    • Project Dan

      Nah. Think I’ll keep standing up for equal rights instead.

  • SarahJesness

    Oy, yeah. The MRA movement has some good intentions and a few good points but it’s being followed mostly by idiots or people who don’t know what they’re talking about. To me, it’s like the libertarian party: I’d be more likely to get on board if it was run by people who actually understood their mission.

    Big problem with MRAs is that many promote the stereotypes that harm men, as if they don’t actually realize how personal beliefs and gender stereotypes create a sexist society. For example, I hear a lot of MRAs talk about how women are weak and emotional and shouldn’t be allowed in combat, but then when the issue of the draft comes up they start talking about how it isn’t fair that women aren’t drafted. Guys, you can’t have it both ways. If you want to hold up your group as stronger, be expected to carry more of the burden.

    A second example is when they talk about how men have less control over their urges, but then they complain about being stereotyped as perverts and rapists. Again, you can’t have it both ways. A third, very common, example is when they talk about how women are naturally better at caring for kids and should stay home, but then they go and complain about how ladies usually get custody. It’s like, dudes, if you’re in a society where everyone believes that women are always more capable as parents, then who do you expect to get custody?

    Sexism is intertwined, and the beliefs that hurt women can also hurt men. Hypocrisy and an inability or unwillingness to acknowledge sexism against women is what really hurts the MRA movement. They want to get rid of the problems men face more often than women but they can’t seem to recognize the deeper societal issues behind those problems. I think crime rates for men would be lower if we didn’t live in a society that stigmatized men showing emotion. I think the male population would be in better health if we didn’t live in a society that says men always have to be tough, which can translate to “be stubborn and refuse to go to the doctor”. I think men wouldn’t be stereotyped as rapists or perverts so often, if they were raised with better teachings on how to respect and interact with women, and if sexual conquest isn’t treated as the ultimate goal for all guys. I think men would have a better chance at getting custody if they were raised in a society where they were encouraged to be nurturing.

    If systematic misandry exists, it exists in part because people like those behind the MRA movement perpetuate it.

    • Roman Monaghan

      Funny how if you replace MRA with Feminism in that opening statement of yours, it doesn’t become any less true.

      • Anthony J. Rand

        The MRA is not comparable with the Feminist movement. Feminism is over a century old (older if you count suffragettes, of course), and it really more of a blanket term to describe a wide variety of movements, with differing goals and beliefs that have changed over time. The MRAs popped up within the past few years. It’s simply not the same.

  • CJ Janise

    I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with you that systemic misandry doesn’t exist. Though I’ve got a theory on the subject–and when I say “theory” I mean it in the sense of “explanation for a series of phenomena” more than “conjecture”–that misandry is not distinct from misogyny, but rather a consequence and extension of it. E.g. the reason men are treated unfairly in custody battles, why representations of female-on-male rape in media are rarely taken seriously, if presented, and why men are targeted for the draft is because women are so often treated as helpless damsel-in-distress victims; the same reason why they’re not allowed to fight on the front lines of combat, why they’re often passed over for jobs compared to equally-qualified male applicants, why there are relatively so few female protagonists, etc. This applies even more to media representation, where male writers, directors, studio executives, what have you are less comfortable making the man the victim, thus the role is foisted time and again onto the woman.

    As with any movement, you can’t judge MRA by the worst of it. It’s like saying all of feminism is “Should male gamers killing female gamers in video games be considered rape?” Though I don’t really consider myself an MRA, since, as outlined, I think it’s kind of a redundant movement.

    Though, speaking as someone small and weak and paranoid, I’m forced to object again to your man-on-the-street vs. woman-on-the-street example, at least as far as universal laws of gender go.

    • Project Dan

      See, I don’t think we disagree quite as much you might think we do.

      Systemic misandry, to me, suggests that we live in a culture in which, down to its very DNA, men are hated simply for being men. I don’t think we live in that world. We sometimes see hatred for individual men or hatred for the consequences that come from a world controlled overwhelmingly by men. But a world where dudes are despised just because they are dudes? That doesn’t ring true to me.

      But the consequences men face as a result of systemic misogyny? Those are horrifically real. The cultural hatred of women is bad for everyone. It’s just, ya know, significantly worse for women.

      As for the example I provided — like I said, there will always be variables, but the potential consequences and the resulting fear remain the same.

      My experience with MRA’s has not been great. All the ones I’ve dealt with are extremely anti-feminist and that, to me, is a big no-no. I’m not saying there aren’t dudes out there identifying as MRA who aren’t concentrating on ways to deal with issues facing dudes without attacking women, I’m just saying I haven’t met any personally so far.

      • Joey

        I’d like to ask you something.

        If you take an individual example of inequality between men and women, like the roles we, as a society have shoved them into. Something like “Women are frail and vulnerable; men are strong and disposable.” I imagine you would say that this is intended to subjugate women and happens to also hurt men.

        The way I view it, we have ingrained views of men and women in our society. The resulting inequality effects us in 2 ways.

        1. Women’s issues (misogyny): These are things that overwhelmingly hurt women. Things like the lack of positive female role-models, pay and promotion inequalities, and objectification and sexualization in the media.

        2. Men’s issues (mysandry): Things that overwhelmingly hurt men like taking dangerous jobs that pay higher to fill the “bread-winner” role, unfair treatment in custody and alimony hearings, and male victims being too ashamed to report or being laughed at when they do.

        Both types of problems are caused by systemic discrimination between the genders. What’s important to note is that both men and women are being categorically lumped into a role. The reason that I find most feminists claim that this is purely a result of misogyny is that the male role is often seen as a positive one because of the “big, strong bread-winner/superhero” archetype. Clearly, though, this hurts men too by holding them to an unreasonable standard.

        So, after all of that, here’s my question: why take all of these issues and attribute them all to misogyny?

        They hurt both men and women and they are perpetuated by men and women alike in our society. The part that hurts men isn’t just some unintended consequence of men being dominant in our society, men, just like women, are being shoved into boxed that we don’t all want to be in.

        Why not just call them gender issues since they effect us all? Calling it all misogyny makes it sound like it only hurts women. You should either embrace a gender neutral term for gender discrimination or acknowledge both sides of it (misogyny and misandry).

        • Project Dan

          I don’t know where you are, but here in NYC it’s 4am. So the short version is, “Men’s issues and misandry are not synonymous to me and saying that systemic misandry doesn’t exist isn’t the same as saying men don’t have any systemic issues whatsoever.”

          I’ll elaborate more tomorrow.

          • Joey

            Okay, thanks.

          • Joey

            Well, perhaps you forgot to elaborate. So, I’ll just respond to the short version. I think both men’s and women’s issues are caused by systemic gender discrimination. Since they both have the same root cause and affect all of us negatively, why not use a gender-neutral word rather than the gendered word misogyny? Or if you must use the gendered term, it seems more appropriate to use it to describe what it actually is, systemic discrimination against women. And when it’s a systemic male issue, use the counterpart, misandry.

        • Roman Monaghan

          Someone else who isn’t gleefully going along with contributing to and accepting gender stereotypes in a comments section that’s supposedly dedicated to discussing why they’re bad. It feels good to not be so alone anymore.

      • Roman Monaghan

        Depends on how you define “hate” I guess.

      • CJ Janise

        I’ve never had a positive experience with a social justice commentator. The ones I’ve met have been myopic, self-righteous, entitled, hypocritical circle-jerking vultures. I still don’t go around talking about social justice activists are wrong and writing rudely-worded articles about them.

        • Project Dan

          There was a moment there when discussion of men’s issues and how they actually fit into our culture might have happened. Thank goodness you opted instead to just say, ‘Nah! Think I’ll just piss on social justice instead!’ Fuck meaningful dialogue, amirite?

          CLASSY.

          • CJ Janise

            I’m saying the opposite. I’m saying that just because you’ve had bad experiences with individuals, you can’t write off an entire movement. Even though the social justice activists I’ve met have been as described, I’m still open to the movement’s ideals. Or, to put it in same words, “I still don’t go around talking about [how] social justice activists are wrong and writing rudely-worded articles about them.”
            I’m still willing to have this discussion.

          • Project Dan

            “I’ve never had a positive experience with a social justice commentator. The ones I’ve met have been myopic, self-righteous, entitled, hypocritical circle-jerking vultures.”

            - a thing you literally said, openly, only hours ago

            So… when I head over to babelfish, what language should I list the above screed as so that, when I ask for it to be translated into sane English it will read as ‘let’s have a discussion’?

          • CJ Janise

            You’re the one who said “And the problem with MRA’s is that they seem either unable or unwilling
            to have any kind of meaningful human empathy towards women. They are
            almost solely interested in the sufferings of themselves and other men.” You then conceded “I’m not saying there aren’t dudes out there identifying as MRA who
            aren’t concentrating on ways to deal with issues facing dudes without
            attacking women, I’m just saying I haven’t met any personally so far.” Then you chose to ignore the fact that I said fundamentally the same thing. I wasn’t even trying to make it about social justice. I was citing an example of how you can’t judge a group by your personal anecdotal evidence. I could have said the same thing about, oh, say, computer programmers or Republicans, except that I have had positive experiences with them. Social justice activists are just the group where I can say that I’ve never personally met one who represented the cause well. It’s an arbitrary example I cited.

            So, back to the discussion. I like the way you phrased “We sometimes see… hatred for the consequences that come from a world controlled overwhelmingly by men”, since that does sort of put voice to much of the anti-male prejudice I’ve seen but had trouble qualifying. I may have to steal that line if this discussion comes up again.

            As you said–and I agree with you–the issue of cultural misogyny covers it up since it is quite a bit more pressing, but I don’t like the implication that the inverse therefore does not exist or should not be addressed. It is comparably negligible, but lots of things that are less noticeable do exist. Just because Godzilla’s destroying the city doesn’t mean that the traffic problem is magically resolved. As previously stated, I think that the most effective route to undoing misandry is undoing misogyny, but recognizing misandry is just good protocol: you want to understand every facet of a problem when you’re working to solve it.

          • Project Dan

            We do agree on some things, but I’m afraid we may forever be doing this dance over the term systemic misandry. I see how it is that you and others think that’s the right term to use, but I still don’t agree. To be clear, I’m not saying men face zero systemic problems inherent to our culture, but I am saying that hatred of all men as a matter of course is not one of those problems.

            That doesn’t mean all of men’s problems relate to misogyny, either. A lot of them do, though, and my biggest beef with MRA’s is that a core tenet of their belief structure seems to be that rape culture does not exist and that feminism is hurtful to men. And that is way wrong. Not only that, but believing that is harmful to women AND men.

            I believe there are a lot of people who hate/don’t care about women and are trying to dismiss their problems simply by saying ‘men have it rough, too’.Systemic misandry has become a battle cry for a lot of those people as though men’s problems negate the problems of women. And that, too, is crazy town.

            Some people may genuinely just be looking for a term to identify the problems men face. I’m not averse to that notion but, again, systemic misandry isn’t, to my mind, a great term to describe those problems. If someone comes up with a term that sums up the rigid expectations we place on men which are systemic and unfair, I will be the first to adopt it. Because that shit is fucked up and needs working on. But not in a way that dismisses or diminishes the systemic plights of women.

          • CJ Janise

            Then it seems like the problem isn’t with the name “systemic misandry”, it’s the connotations attached to it. I’m not really sure that’s something that can be addressed, since connotation has such a massive effect on language and is so fluid.
            Consider that “idiot”, “moron”, and “imbecile” were once scientifically-approved terms for persons with severe mental handicaps. As they became more and more used as insults, “mentally retarded” became the preferred term, until the same thing happened and it became “special needs” or “special abilities”, which is already pretty commonly used as an insult. I think there’s a new term they’re trying to get circulating, but I can’t remember what it is, and it’s possible I’m just misremembering. But the point is “systemic misandry” is sort of the name best suited to describing this. It’s misandry built into the system. There are more apt names, but not really anything that can be condensed to 1-3 words and thus easily enter the lexicon. If you–or anyone else–thinks of something, I’d not be surprised if it will pretty swiftly be swarmed with the same MRAs about whom you’re complaining and the meaning will be co-opted again.
            Sorry if that breached into navel-gazing territory.

          • Project Dan

            One last post. I promise it is not in any way a dig at you, just a clarification on why I still don’t, respectfully, agree with what you’re saying.

            It’s not just the connotation, it’s the very definition. If you want to say there’s misandry in the world then, yeah, okay. That’s true. But you can find people who hate anything. That doesn’t make something a systemic issue. The misandry men experience isn’t built into the system, it’s down to a minority of individuals.

            When it comes to expectations we place on men — that’s not systemic misandry because hate doesn’t really factor into it. When we, for example. expect men to be the breadwinner in a family, that’s not because we, as a society, hate men — it’s because we’ve decided that it’s a man’s job to bring home the proverbial bacon based on the false assumption that he is better and more equipped to handle that responsibility than a woman is. That’s sexist (primarily towards the woman, but, secondarily to the man as well), but it’s not misandry. No one is saying ‘I hate you, man, so go to work and make the money.’

            Feminists (and the overwhelming majority of women in general) do not hate men, but they do hate when men perpetuate a culture of misogyny. But again, that’s not the same as systemic misandry. You can hate an action without hating an entire gender.

            I’ve tried to explain my position on this via personal experience, but maybe mine alone is not enough. Have you ever checked out Everyday Sexism? It’s a site dedicated to allowing women to share the harassment they face due to misogyny in their every day lives. It’s really eye-opening just how much harassment due to misogyny women face every single day.

            There’s no male equivalent to Everyday Sexism because men have no comparable, systemic issue that is so completely about hatred of men for being men.

            And if you’ll permit me one, last personal observation that I think is noteworthy; this article I’ve written has, as you can see, generated a lot of backlash. Plenty of people think I’m a fool, crazy, and a bad human being. But do you know what didn’t happen once during all of those personal attacks? Threats of rape or murder. Not once.

            I’ve seen many women touch on this topic and others and, in addition to being called names, they almost always receive threats of physical violence. And why? Because we live in a culture that justifies the systemic hatred of women.

            It’s not just a matter of one being worse than the other to me, it’s two completely different things. Maybe that’s just splitting hairs, but I feel the distinction is important because it informs how we deal with problems that both men and women face.

          • CJ Janise

            “Consequential misandry” was the best one I could come up with.

          • Project Dan

            I… don’t hate it. That doesn’t sound like the highest praise, I realize, but I want to chew it over a bit more. We’re delving into, I think, new and fertile territory, though.

            I genuinely think that the key to solving systemic problems in our culture comes through understanding the root causes of those problems and contextualizing them in a way that helps us see the bigger picture rather than just viewing things purely through the lens of our own experience.

            And above all, it means having an open dialogue. That can be rare, but I feel like, even if it’s just in this moment, we’ve done that. And I thank you.

          • CJ Janise

            No, thank you. We got off to a rough start, but real conversation is a rare treat.

  • Kevin Kiker

    does misandry exist? to an extent, watch any lifetime movie. Is it systemic? psh no. Would Dr. Who be good if it was played by a woman? hell I’m pulling for Helen Mirren to take the helm in the Tardis.

  • Christopher Hughes

    Dan, you just opened up a very coordinated can of very stupid worms. I feel for you.

    And a woman Doctor would be awesome. My fiance and I were both kind of disappointed when the camera panned over the new guy (and not just because the episode ended on a bizarrely abrupt cliffhanger).

  • Roman Monaghan

    Really the fact these people are Dr. Who fans is what signals them as idiots more then being MRA people. Dr. Who fans are, collectively, the most inane psychotically moronic group of the people on the face of the internet. I need only hear that someone is a Dr. Who fan to know I should take every single thing they say with a substantial grain of salt.

    I also would speak out against this article bashing the most extreme members of MRA groups just as much as I would an article bashing feminists while using comments from psycho bitches who say we should castrate all males and that the only way to be a truly liberated woman is to be a lesbian. I’m not exaggerating, there’s women out there who say this shit without irony. And whilst feminists love pulling the don’t judge the entire group by its most crazy members, for some reason this is acceptable when it comes to Mens Rights Activists, who the none crazy members of are campaigning for perfectly understandable and acceptable things that go along with abolishing gender stereotypes. I can’t see why this wouldn’t be acceptable considering most feminists seem to place womens rights FIRST and every other groups rights seconds, so if there can be a social movement that can place African Americans rights FIRST before everything else why not one that places mens rights FIRST?

    Of course I have my own personal issue with either group existing, MRA groups or Feminist groups, since the pronounced gender focus of both only serve to further drive a wedge between the two genders instead of bringing us all under the same humanistic roof, but whatever, I know that argument isn’t allowed to be considered, so I’ll just stick with the “why is it only sexist when men do it” argument.

  • necrom23

    I’m a white male and I’m all for human empathy. If I saw this woman in that state, I would yell at her to go to a public place and call a cab for her own safety. What she’s doing is stupid. I, as a 6-foot-tall, heavy-built male, wouldn’t stumble home drunk and expect there not to be trouble.

    Now that being said, and this is purely anecdotal, I have yet to find any benefit of my race/gender (though I have from being an American citizen surely). In fact I’m suspicious my race/gender have hindered me as far as government help. I’m from a poor family, but I paid my way through college (that includes liberal arts as well as other degrees) without scholarships despite being poor and applying and having excellent grades (not perfect, but when only a few slots are allotted for scholarships for your race/gender, you need perfect). Almost every job I’ve held has been with a female boss (and I realize that is probably coincidence.. I do work in IT) who makes more than I do (and I have handled payroll, so I know this). Again every corporate company I’ve worked for has a no tolerance policy regarding discrimination. I also live in a state that bars employers from such activity. I’m for gender/racial equality, but we are living in much better times. Take that for what it is. At this point in my life, given my experience, I see instances of discrimination as single instances rather than an institutional failure. I’m sure there are companies that need correction or cases of one-on-one problems. Those should be corrected.

    I’m not saying give up the fight, but when we’re having arguments about whether a fictional character should have their gender changed rather than pay equality, equal marriage rights, adoption rules, etc; well that’s just sad. Changing popular male characters won’t magically solve any real-world problems. Now if there’s a good story to go with the change, I could be interested. But if it’s just some attempt at feminine empowerment, I think the effort would be better-spent on real world problem (really third-world problems should take precedence).

  • Michael

    Just a quick thought experiment, how many people would accept your story if you switch the man and women into a situation of black and white. Would it be acceptable or would you decry the author for being a racist. Just saying.

    • Project Dan

      Hey, everybody. We can stop looking for today’s false equivalency. I found it!

      • Michael

        Please explain. It is true that some men rape women. It is true that some black people commit crimes against white people. Yet crossing the street because you think a man is following you is not the same as crossing the street because you think someone black is following you. Both A and B premises are true and sound yet you get two different outcomes for C?

  • Alison Maney

    Beautifully written. Thank you for this.

  • Magdalen O’Reilly

    Feminsts and MRAs: You can’t take everything you hear and read on the internet seriously. Some feminists are bat shit, but contrary to what opponents would like you to think- it’s actually a small minority. Women live in fear of men because of systemic misogyny. Fear leads to anger because you feel weak. Anger makes you hate whats making you feel weak. The few women out there screaming that all men are rapists or potential rapists all have one thing in common: they are terrified. Why are they terrified? Because we live in a culture where sexual assault and abuse is normal. I’ve literally known more women in my life who have experienced sexual/physical abuse from men than have not. That’s the reality that women live with every day in America.

    Men see this outcry and feel attacked. They feel like feminists are accusing them personally of doing awful things to women. They feel vilified. Some educate themselves and realize the root of the problem is systemic misogyny. Others are not educated. Mostly young men and teenagers (already a very self absorbed time in anyone’s life) can’t take the what they interprate as criticism and retaliate in the only way the internet has taught them how; vulgar, sociopathic bullying. We’ve seen both kinds here on this very comment thread.

    Dan, seriously, if we ever meet in person I’ll give you a cookie for your efforts.

  • Lewis Lovhaug

    It’s fascinating seeing some of the other comments supporting systemic misandry by citing examples that are actually a part of systemic misogyny or the patriarchy in general. I don’t take MRAs seriously and I never will. Rape culture exists. Sexism exists. Systemic misandry does not. Kudos, Dan.
    And I’m in favor of a female Doctor.

    • Magdalen O’Reilly

      Oh Lewis, you so rad. <3

    • Charna Charna

      Did you know men get put in jail for longer than women? BAM and your argument is gone. I’m not in favour of a female doctor for the following reason: statistically speaking if Time Lords can change gender when they regenerate why hasn’t this happend before now? I mean female is the default gender so if it was going to happen it would’ve happend the fact that it hasn’t proves that Time Lords must have some sort of genetic quirk that fixes their gender even when everything else about them changes. To have a female doctor now would completely break my in universe suspension of disbelief. Although maybe if something sciency interfered with his regeneration process I’d buy it…so maybe I could be in favour of it provided they explained it as something beyond “Time Lord biology lol”.

      • Lewis Lovhaug

        Source, please. And even if it’s true, WHY are they put in prison longer? If it’s because of a perception of more violent crime done by women? Or just more men arrested?
        And on top of that, ONE counterexample does not the argument invalidate.
        Further, you assume they COULD choose what gender they changed into. The Docotr has shown very little control over his regenerations, especially when they’re done traumatically as they are. And why do you assume female is the default gender for Gallifreyans? You do realize they’re ALIENS, yes?
        And let me get this straight – the alien capable of rewriting his biology so that it affects his height, weight, and general personality when his life is in danger… but the GENDER changing is the thing that breaks your suspension of disbelief?
        Plus, even the creators has confirmed that Time Lords can change gender both on-screen (in The Doctor’s Wife) AND in an interview with Moffat for the announcement of the 12th Doctor. Just because we haven’t SEEN it on the show happening to a Time Lord doesn’t mean it doens’t happen. Hell, after The Deadly Assassin, people assumed there were no female Time Lords at all because none were seen in that episode. People were shown to be wrong when Invasion of Time aired.
        So please stop assuming you have some grander insight about the show than everybody else, including the people who actually make the damn thing.

    • MRAAlternate

      How dumb do you have to be to make statements like that? Men are the number one victims of violent crime. They are the least likely to be permitted access to higher education. They are the most homeless. They kill themselves the most frequently. They are the least likely to have health care. They are the most likely to be the divorcee. They are the most likely to pay alimony and child support. They are nearly just as likely to be murdered by a girlfriend or wife as they are to murder a girlfriend or wife. The entire media complex portrays them as fools, idiots, criminals, or, in virtually the only respectable position available on media: as an agent of the state.

  • tbok1992

    Yeah, I agree with you one-hundred percent Dan. I’m also of the school of feminism that thinks most man-specific issues are more due to patriarchy than “misandry”.

    But; while I think misandry is not a problem in a larger societal context, I do think it is a problem in the feminist movement. For, while the amount of feminists who are misandrists is many, many, many thousands of times smaller than the amount of MRAs that are misogynists, that tiny minority is very; very loud and presents a skewed picture of feminism/muddies the waters on various issues that ultimately ends up alienating many potential allies of both genders. Note the infamous reputation of Tumblr feminists for proof of that.

    I think feminism does need to confront this issue within itself, lest the small contingent of extremists cause it to be marginalized like the 2nd Wave ultimately was.

    And I am also in favor of a lady Doctor. Though I’m not sure whether I’d want an older or a younger one.

  • Bismuthprince

    It’s a good message, good article too; I agree that actual systemic misandry, as in some sort of conspiracy, is most likely a myth (Barring some scientifically prerequisite amount of doubt)

    Why I think so many guys feel attacked by feminism and feminist theory is not just because they (we) don’t want to feel guilty about what we thought was normal; but because they don’t realize that any sociological theory or framework is a generalisation of society in order to spot trends, rather than a cut-and-dried description of the innate being of any human.
    I often see people try to refute theories such as male privelege or rape culture by using anecdotal evidence (“I see no male privelege, my life has been harder than some/most women I know and I had to fight for everything in my life etc. etc.”) so that makes me think there is some misunderstanding.

    Sociological theory, I repeat, does not attempt to define every individual seperately, it attempts to define trends, correlations and possible causations. If I may be so preposterous as to suggest how to be a feminist:
    Being a feminist, humanist or any kind of positive -ist is very simple. Don’t try to bend your head around what people are like collectively and what manner of thought and conduct is proper. Instead, learn to see humanity as a collective of unique personalities and traits; treat every new person you meet, regardless of gender, sex, race, disability etc with an open mind and a clean slate. Don’t worry about what women are; worry about who the woman in front of you is, objectively.

    And thus ends my rambling

  • anon
  • Determined Bookworm

    This article reminds me of this quote: “Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.” ― Margaret Atwood. There is certainly a significant difference. Men have obstacles in society but its like comparing the obstacles of white people to black people. One group has a cold while the other group has pneumonia. Logically, it’s important to first tend to the patient with the most serious wound in order to pick up the slack for ignoring it for so long.

    People shouldn’t be thrown off by the word ‘feminism’ because men have benefitted from it too. I see the benefits of feminism everyday as I watch fathers happily push strollers and play with their children. There was a time when it was seen as strange for men to be emotionally available for their family due to strict and dysfunctional definitions of manhood. By challenging gender stereotypes, feminism works both ways: women can be strong and men can be nurturing.

    Feminism isn’t perfect but neither was the Civil Rights Movement nor the Gay Rights Movement nor any crusade for justice but it’s still important and beneficial. And at least feminism continues to evolve, adapting to new methods, engaging different perspectives which make it truly democratic (ex. sex positive vs. sex negative, various waves of feminism). Even though the MRAs frustrate me, I will say one good thing, at least they have opinions (misguided ones but still…) As Malcolm X said, either be cold or hot because I can’t stand lukewarm people.

    I would rather deal with passionate people than indifferent, jaded people who bow out from engaging in any debate, holding any belief or standing up for anything. I really have little patience for complacent people who think along the lines of “eh, well, what can you do?” or “I have no opinions either way because this is messy and I don’t want to be involved.” Anyway, I’m done with my rant. Thank you for this article. I enjoyed reading it.

  • Zenshu

    OK here’s my piece. Both Feminists and MRA’s are correct about the claims of systematic sexism against their respective groups. Men are almost never even considered when it comes to granting sole custody. Women are discriminated against in the workplace when it comes not just to wages but being treated like an equal or even getting the job in the first place. Saying that women need additional protection due to the very true fact that women tend to be physically weaker than men, but claiming MRA’s have no right to complain when they bring up the fact that only men must sign up for the selective service is both short-sighted and bigoted. Each group has their own crackpots. Some members of MRA’s are just morons, but some Feminists never took biology and believe the male is an incomplete female. Do these things discredit either side? NO! Sexism is a two way street.

    And to anyone who sings the praises of only one side I have this to say: Both groups suffer from the same flawed logic that equality can be reached by focusing on the sleights against just one gender.

    I know that was long but thanks if you actually read it all.

    • Roman Monaghan

      THAAAAAANK YOU.

    • 37 Pieces Of Ric Flair

      I am tired of hearing about men’s custody “problems”. Let’s break it down: The vast majority of child custody arrangements are not decided by the courts. Only 5%.

      In 51% of custody arrangements, both parents agreed that the mother should be the main custodial parent.

      In 29% of custody arrangements, the decision about custody was made without ANY third party involvement.

      Only 11% of custody arrangements were decided using mediation of any kind, with as few as 5% being decided after court-ordered custody evaluations.

      Of those, an estimated 50% of fathers who seek custody are granted it.

      Again, an estimated 50% of fathers who seek custody are granted it.

      (One more time for the cheap seats in the back!) An estimated 50% of fathers who seek custody are granted it.

      Five percent of custody arrangements somehow form the backbone of a vast conspiracy against men. Sorry, but 50% of that 5% ruling in favor of dads ≠ systemic bias by the courts against men in custody agreements.

      • kurokotetsu

        Sotty, but may you quote were did you get that. I only find an article that doens’t quote any sources either, and sorry, but that is an unreliable statistic.

  • Kurasu

    As someone else who has lived both sides of the coin (one longer than the other, and in the opposite direction), I am in full agreement with this. I smile at a woman on the street, and she’s terrified. At first, I was hurt by it. Later on, I was just more sad that just because now that I have a beard, I am apparently a dangerous creeper. Never mind the fact that I am probably shorter and considerably less physically able to hold my own if she felt the need to defend herself. Thanks to the way the world has treated casual androgyny, even today (believe me: I see and hear it all the time nowadays), it really changes the scope of how everything is looked at. And the worst part is: it doesn’t just hurt the women, it *does* hurt the men.

    I don’t mean this in a ‘Men should have every right to do what they want’ way. God knows, that’s the very thing that got the culture into this position in the first place. I mean about the harm it ends up doing to those men who *do* believe in equal rights. Who *are* ‘the good ones’. Who *are* impacted negatively by how all this goes down. And the militant MRA views are, unfortunately, not helping this, any more than militant feminism helps feminist views look good.

    There’s a reason the word ‘equality’ contains the word ‘equal’. I don’t believe that men should suddenly have to be seen as ‘the shining examples’. I believe that ‘the shining examples’ should exist, and that the fact they’re men or women shouldn’t have to matter. It does, of course; there’s always politics where the fact it was a *man* who stepped up, or a *woman*, changes everything. It just shouldn’t *have* to.

    Ah well. Idealist thinking. In an ideal world…

    • Michael

      When you said you were sad I thought you were going to continue with “because I realised the reasons women might have to be afraid of men”, but instead you turned it into a pity party for yourself.

      The reasons women are afraid of men is because men are seen as dangerous. I know, soak it in. I’m sure you agree. This is, technically, a form of misandry. But what you need to realise is that misandry all comes back to misogyny,

      We live in a misogynistic world that says that women are weak and men with feminine traits are also weak, and thus need to be protected. This also makes men and masculinity appear inherently violent.

      World theories aside, attacks happen; rapes happen; murders happen. And who do they happen by? Us. Men. I’m not saying that they don’t happen by women as well, because they do, but the fact is that men do them MORE. Men are told they are violent, so they ARE violent. This is what makes men afraid to stand up against abusive women, because they are told they should be able to take care of themselves and never hit a woman. This is misogyny – the hatred of femininty, the need to protect vulnerable women even if they are abusers and the need to ridicule men who are raped and abused.

      Because being raped and abused is a feminine thing. Being raped and abused is a female thing.

      Think. It all comes back to misogyny.

  • Plebian Giant

    This blog post is amazing. I would even go so far as to say that it should be used in university classrooms. However, these would not be classrooms in which Gender studies would be taught, instead I would use this blog as an example for how not to make any kind of relevant or coherent argument for a philosophy class.

    You make the statement that systemic misandry does not exist in our society. Fine, this is the thesis statement of this blog and the argument you placed inside it. However, for your argument you state that systemic misandry (systemic: of relating to systems or a system) does not exist because when a singular person (you) walked down a street late at night while inebriated that person did not feel safe because a man was walking near you. This caused said person to have some kind of anxiety and they fled home. Because of this, there is no established discriminatory actions that happen to men at all. Ever, in the whole of our society. Not only that, but men always get away with violence towards women. Where are the numbers?

    Let me show you a comparable example to what you have given us.

    Systemic Misogyny does not exist!

    NO! STOP IT! DON’T EVEN TALK!

    A few years ago I came home after getting off my second job that I had to take because my wife got fired for drug use and she hasn’t found a new job in two years. Every time I try to confront her about it she yells and screams in my face about how she’s going through a rough time and I should just get off her back. We have a 4 year old together which was really the only reason I was staying with her. Anyway, I came home to find that my son had been locked in his closet and was crying. I asked him why he was locked in there, he told me that his mother had put him on time-out for not eating his cheerios this morning. By the way, It was 9:30 at night when I got home and he starts eating breakfast before I leave at 7:00 in the morning. Needless to say he had soiled himself from being locked in a closet for nearly 15 hours. He was saying that he was hungry and very thirsty. So I took him into the kitchen to get him some food and water. I was beyond angry, I don’t think their is a good enough word in the English language to describe how angry with my wife I was. When I walked into the kitchen I saw my wife, she passed out next to the oven with a half empty bottle of Jack and a open container of Vicodin. I wanted to smash her fucking face in because of what she had done my son, but I didn’t. I don’t believe that violence is the correct way to solve any problem so I stepped over her and got my son a glass of water (which he drank with terrifying intensity). Then I got a granola bar out and gave it to him and took him back to his room. I walked back into the kitchen and shook my wife awake with my foot. She finally came to after about a minute of prodding. When she looked up at me her eyes were glazed and bloodshot. I asked her how many drinks she had had that day. She told me it was none of my business. I told her that if I ever caught her doing what she did to our son again I was reporting her to social services and taking him away. At this point it was a blur of motion as suddenly rocketed to her feet and slammed to bottle of Jack into my neck, needless to say it shattered and covered me with cuts and stinging alcohol. I yelled at her and she stood up and started screaming back at me. I decided at that point that I had had enough and began packing my bags. She shrieked at me the whole time (her favorite insult was calling me “a cock-headed-faggot”). I then told her that I was taking our son and that she could go fuck off. She disappeared at that point and went into my son’s room and had him pack some clothes and we started heading out. When I opened my front door to go out to my car the police started pulling up. I was pretty happy to see them. They jumped out of their car and ran up to me screaming for me to put the boy down and have my hands where they could see them. Needless to say I was arrested and taken to the station while the cops left my son with my now ex-wife. I protested the whole time, telling them that she had struck me and was just trying to leave the house. They told me that it didn’t matter what actually happened. Procedure stated that they “had” to arrest any male at the scene of a domestic disturbance. I eventually got acquitted from the charges, but noting has come down on my ex. We are in the middle of a custody battle for my son and its looking grim. MISOGYNY DOES NOT EXIST!!!!!

    This is actual systemic discrimination, not anecdotal evidence of rape fears produced by your own mind. When it is legally required for any police officer to arrest the man at any domestic disturbance scene automatically regardless of evidence. The woman can still be arrested, but this is not done automatically. Misogyny and Misandry exist today, both are systemic and both are problems. The fact that one exist does not discount the existence of the other.

    • Project Dan

      Just because something terrible happened to you does not make your experience a systemic problem. I realize you want to make me feel bad for denying the existence of systemic misandry with your personal anecdote. But, while I think it’s horrible what happened to you, I won’t allow you to put forth your experience as though it is proof that our culture hates men for the sake of them being men. It doesn’t. You want to blame something for your plight other than your wife’s mental illness? Blame misogyny. Legislation passed because we, as a society, are so terrible to women that we have to protect them from systemic hatred is the reason you are in the boat your in. Not misandry.

      What you described has happened to individuals, not an entire gender. What I described is a thing that every single woman has gone through. That’s the difference.

      • fancyfennekin

        Are you fucking serious right now? Did you even look at what he just said to you?

        “They told me that it didn’t matter what actually happened. Procedure stated that they “had” to arrest any male at the scene of a domestic disturbance.”

        The word “systemic” in reference to sociology situations means that there are LEGAL PROCEDURES that show an inherent bias towards or against a certain group of people regardless of the individual cases. This anecdotal evidence is actually representative of current legal bias that is AGAINST men right now, as opposed to your cited anecdote which is purely cultural and has no statistics you can put behind it. I’m a girl, myself! Always have been. I have experienced that paranoia a bit, as well, a sort of need to rush through a dark parking lot and to the car a lot faster. But let me tell you something: everyone has this reaction, REGARDLESS of reason. Men have that rush of fear just as women do, but they are worried about getting robbed and murdered, just as women are afraid of getting raped. It’s an inherent fear of strangers, which has only culturally been amplified by Stranger Danger.

        But aside from your own weak argument, the point is this: when you claim that there is absolutely no such thing about systemic misandry and someone whips out the actual protocol that police and court systems have in this day and age to prove otherwise, you’re willfully denying any existence of fact in favor of being a bigot, yourself.

        Your anecdotal evidence has proven nothing to your thesis and is barely a stable argument in its own right about the terrible plight of being a woman (where the actual problem comes from other sources, not the paranoia that is instilled in everyone about walking around alone at night).

        • Project Dan

          Those laws were passed because our society is trying to deconstruct centuries of subjugation and cultural hatred of women, not because we hate men.

          You’re trying to discredit me by saying you’ve always been a woman, but my whole point is that I’ve lived on both sides of the situation I described and there is an appreciable difference that stems specifically from our rape culture. When you sell that fear as simple stranger danger, you completely ignore an incredibly visceral and real dimension behind the fear.

          I never said men don’t have problems. Stop putting words in my mouth. Read the comments and you will see me agree that men absolutely face systemic issues in our culture, but misandry is not one of them.

          • fancyfennekin

            So the answer to the subjugation and cultural hatred is to go so far as to oppress them because it’s “their turn”? Because it doesn’t matter if women are just as statistically inclined to be dangerous in a domestic situation as a man is, men “deserve it”? So it’s of course to be expected for men to be the ones sent off to war in a draft and not women, of course it’s expected for men to lose their children in family court no matter how psychologically and socially unsound the woman happens to be, so of course they’re automatically arrested and to blame in every single domestic abuse situation because that is PROTOCOL.

            No you’re totally right that’s fair and not systemic misandry at all. It’s not like if you swapped men for women in that exact situation you’d be screaming into the heavens about how misogynist it is because it shows a bias against women. It couldn’t possibly be such a thing.

          • Project Dan

            I think my favorite part was where you turned “men face systemic issues in our culture, just not misandry” into “I WANT ALL MEN TO BE OPPRESSED”.

            Either stop being so purposefully obtuse or don’t engage in this debate. Nobody wants a society where men are separated from their children without due cause, but understanding how we got here (systemic misogyny and rigid expectations placed upon men that do not have anything to do with systemic misandry) is one of the most crucial steps in how we work to change things for the better.

          • Plebian Giant

            Ladies and gentlemen, I give you… GYNOCENTRISM!!!

            Seriously? Everything has to come back to women? Why? It can’t be that society holds deep-seeded discrimination against men. Only women.

            This is such a radically insane idea that I can’t comprehend it. That’s like saying that fire burns people because lye burns people. Both are a form of a burn, but they don’t necessarily have anything to do with each other. Instead of turning a blind eye other people’s problems or dismissing them entirely, why don’t you actually do some research on the subject and not just sit in a circle-jerk or a echo-chamber.

          • fancyfennekin

            I’m sorry but you’re seriously being the obtuse one. The argument presented to you is that the systematic bias against men is in fact misandry, citing actual things that are happening in this country that you have also acknowledged are problems, and yet you refuse to acknowledge these biases as misandry.

            But if they were the same biases put against women, you’d label them misogyny in a microsecond.

            This is the problem. Your article is denouncing the existence of systemic bias against men (with anecdotal evidence that says nothing other than “rape culture is a thing that exists!!” and doesn’t discount anything to do with what men endure) and any attempt by anyone in these comments to say “this is a thing that actually exists” is met with “oh but that’s not REALLY misandry”.

            If the rigid expectations we once held towards women (“stay at home and take care of the children”) are inherently misogynistic, then the rigid expectations we hold towards men (“they are dangerous and can’t be trusted with anything”), especially when compared to women (the ASSUMPTION on a legal basis that the man is the wrongdoer and that the woman has to be PROVEN to be the wrongdoer)… that is INHERENTLY MISANDRY.

            There is an imbalance in how feminism is currently trying to promote women. It’s showing favor to women and in the vast majority of the time, it can be quite good for them. However, we are experiencing a problem where the scales are tipping too heavily in women’s favor and it’s being blatantly ignored because “oh, it doesn’t really matter, it’s not like men are capable caretakers” or “men are the REASON women are in such poor state anyway so they deserve it!”

            It’s unfair, repulsive, and it’s a form of misandry. It doesn’t meet the scale of the past, no. But that doesn’t matter because the past is PAST, and it has improved. You can’t win a court case by citing an earlier, resolved court case as your justification. You need to look at things objectively and denying that there is a bias currently in the legal system (thus, by definition, systematic), you are turning a blind eye to the injustice that is growing because no one wants to admit fault.

            I don’t see how that is any better than many forms of misogyny.

  • Grendle1853

    Still can’t imagine a female Doctor. Maybe they should test the waters with a female Master first, since we don’t have the Ronni it could be a good way to get a powerful recurring female villain.

  • Kraas

    Excellent article. Good *lord*, I can’t stand MRAs. I think this cartoon does a good job of deconstructing them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZYbMOn1ZTI

  • Drowemos

    I don’t think you demonstrate your point very well here are all. The fact that women can get raped doesn’t demonstrate anything about culture or society just that we are animals. Every species that has a male and a females has occurrences of rape (Hyenas excluded). The inequality you speak of is something you have to take up with god or evolution or what ever force you believe in. Men also don’t have to squeeze live humans out of their privates. So yes men have it better but it’s not culture or society to blame for that situation.

    It would be like saying we have a murder culture because people get murdered or a cancer culture because people get cancer. Culture can not stop bad things from happening it can just respond to them when they do. After all, culture has been trying to stop many social ills for all of human existence and yet has never been able to completely eliminate any of the. You simply don’t address culture in your scenario.

    Now their could be an argument made that culture response poorly to rape when it occurs. But you don’t make this argument here. You just assume that it’s true and frankly that’s not something that can be assumed.

    Likewise a woman crossing the street has nothing to do with what the MRA are talking about. If you disagree with what they believe in fine. But don’t make up something up that is easy to ridicule.

    Here is the real problem. People are horrible. Men, women, other, we are all horrible. Assigning the horribleness to just one gender is intrinsically wrong headed. Women abuse the system for their own advantage just as much as men. As the system shift from male dominated one to something else the abuse by women will necessarily increase. Because people are horrible.

    Where is the balance? I don’t know. I feel like it is still tllted to the advantage of men. But that doesn’t mean that abuses of the system by women should not be challenged.

    As for a female doctor? Well frankly I never got over the doctor not being old and cranky. So I if it’s a young sexy female doctor I am against it as it would take the character further away from what I loved about it. A Margret Thatcher style doctor on the other hand would be kind of awesome.

  • Relengua

    next time ill log in, then post.
    short version: women affraid of getting raped and killed but men dont need to fear such things? mofo this is why nobody respects feminazis(at least people with brains) in the middle of the night, alone and someone is right behind you? if u dont fear death more power to you, but i dont know anybody around that doesnt fear getting mugged at best killed at worst, STFU with your feminazi BS.

    • Michael

      Women fear getting raped and abused and killed by men. Men fear getting raped and killed and abused by men.

      What’s the common factor? A fear of men. This isn’t feminazi bullshit, this is a real fear of the real dangers that men can pose.

  • kurokotetsu

    While I don’t inherently disagree (I have no evidence of systemic misandry happening, but lack of proof is not a proof of lack), but the personal argument isn’t terribly convincing, I have to say.

    I don’t live in the US. I have been robbed a couple of times, one with physical violence and one with psycological violence, both with plentey of witnesses and he first on broad daylight. My father was kidnapped for a night and a friend for several days. Alomst everyone I know has had problems with crime. None of those criminals have faced justice, many of them were not reported and others were never caught (or even when caught nothing happened). That is a culture of insecurity and fear, far worse than an average American woman faces after a night out. Still, when I walk at night by myself I don’t cross the street the moment someone is behind me. Yes, I am a man, but a rather short and weak man (not that in my experience that makes much of a difference when they tell or show a weapon). Still I don’t inhrently think that someone wlking behind me is going to rob or assault me. I have crossed the street and have been careful, but that is not my first reaction and is never my inherent response. And even living in a far more dangerous place none of my encounters have been a result of being followed (even if I will probably do it if I find it suspicious). If what you are saying is a “rape culture” because women are afraid, I will say that is closer to paranoia. That is a misrepresentation of reality and thinking the worse of people, not rape culture per se.

    Second, your personal experience is not representative. I never though that and I’ve been in both sides, with the same risk while being followed as a woman (normaly not rape, but well, it isn’t out of the equation). Your personal experience isn’t necessarily a representation of the reality. Proof by personal example isn’t a proof.

    I would tend to agree that there is no systemic misandry and that misogeny is a far more problemative issue, your example works neither as a logical proof nor of the existance of a rape culture or inherent misogeny.

  • Vismutti

    I. Absolutely. Fucking. Hate. This. Debate.

    I don’t mean this article, this article is great, I mean this debate in general. I hate the asshole MRAs and I haaate the ignorant, misandrist feminists. But it definitely is a false equivalency. The two groups are very different in numbers, strategies, actual actions and in percentages of assholes. But the end result is a stupid, over-dramatic and non-constructive debate that just feeds the feud further making both sides angrier and hence more irrational.

    Sadly, I do know a lot of these people. Well, I actually don’t know any hardcore misandrists but they are kind of a fringe group anyway and barely even relevant to this debate (like hardcore misogynists, really, I think most of the MRAs are just misguided and/or selfish, not really hateful). But I do know at least two MRAs, one woman and one man. Both are really nice people, just really misguided. Probably mostly because of the narrow view they have of the world, hanging out in very female dominated groups like larpers and fanfiction writers and thinking that’s how the whole world works.

    I also know plenty of misguided feminists who basically seem to see EVERYTHING as misogyny by default. You know those people. I mean people who accuse you of misogyny if you say you don’t like a specific female character in a movie or tv show or comic or book or whatever. There does seem to be a certain culture of overreaction in certain feminist circles, I feel.

    I also know the occasional real misogynist, racist, nationalist bigot. I prefer not to even talk about them. I can’t believe I still hang out with these people but unfortunately I can’t avoid them.

    And then I know the sensible, moderate people who I may not always agree with but who I think are on the right track and who I can have honest debates with and even end up convinced by them to change my mind because they actually have good points. Unfortunately, most of them avoid conflicts and do jack shit to actually change the world.

    But enough about that, I really want to hear how you ended up living as a woman and what was the experience like!

  • Grendle1853

    Lets see how long it takes to have these comments taken down. I don’t really know anything about the MRA, but a part of me does groan a little whenever the entire male sex is referred to as weak or a 80 pound woman is shown easily defeating rooms full of heavily armed and combat ready men with no effort. Do I think my rights are being encroached on by pro women legislation though? No, that stupid and for the most part wrong. I would rather that the society as a whole doesn’t see me as an asshole or automatically in the wrong just for my sex though.

    • Michael

      Woah, being judged negatively based on your sex?? I can’t imagine ANY woman has had to go through that…

      • Grendle1853

        I thought that was the sort of thing that we were trying to abolish in society, not pushing onto the opposite gender.

  • Roman Monaghan

    Here’s my issue with feminism geared articles talking about MRA groups such as this

    “ALL MRA people are the saaaame and they just think women have it all good and wanna oppress women while also not wanting to worry about the draaaft”

    “Hey don’t say all feminists are mean man haters, that’s seeeexist and you shouldn’t judge a social movement by the worst of its most vocal members.”

    Like, you’d be a lot better at expressing your point, if you could somehow do it without sounding like a psychotic hypocrite.

  • Eliot Hochberg

    I agree that it’s darn silly that anyone would be concerned or threatened by Dr. Who being a woman. It’s a fictional character, and who’s to say what the Doctor can or can’t be? The writers, and frankly I think it might be fun (and lead to some weird moments – what if a female Doctor met her/himself in the timeline?)

    That said, what you are calling MRA is in fact real, just not as stupidly as anti Miss Dr. Who people would put it.

    First off, let’s get something straight – there are plenty of representations of men in fiction. Those people who say there ought to be more women or others have a point.

    But let’s review what most of the representations of men are in fiction: either they are super heroes, wealthy billionaires, downtrodden gents who eventually get what they want through rising to the occasion, super-villains or serial killers.

    Yes, there are some characters who are more nuanced or thoughtful, but I put to you that their numbers are much closer to the number of non-love interest female characters, at least in main-stream entertainment.

    If magazines present impossible role models for women, depicting external features that can’t be obtained and recommending that women be subservient, it is equally true that male role models are also impossible to mimic. Impossibly strong, incredibly intelligent, incredibly lucky. They almost always get the girl, and the girl is almost always incredibly beautiful.

    And if you think this doesn’t effect men in real life, you’d be wrong. Of course, nobody expects men to be super-human. But there is a constant pressure to “be a man”. You must have confidence, or you are worthless. And unlike in the film world, it’s quite unlikely that that one lucky moment will get you what you want.

    Then there’s the other side, the one that women don’t really have to deal with. See, while women may be portrayed sometimes as bumbling, they aren’t put down for it. Ah, but what do men see when they see people who are most like themselves? A person incapable of doing minor chores. A man derided for not being able to get any woman he wants. A fool who can at best in life expect to enjoy a commercial beverage.

    What about objectification? Yes, women get objectified, and there are definitely mainstream examples of weird and horrible ways women are shown to be subservient. Ah, but men are objectified as well. And woe be the man, in the real world, who doesn’t fit one of those molds. Try to get a job, find someone to date, make friends if you are quiet, or less than average looking.

    And now, to address the biggest concern: fear of violence. Do women think they are the only ones who are afraid on a dark street? Perhaps they are afraid more often, and what with generally being smaller and less physically strong than most men, that’s prudent. But there is this idea that it never happens to men.

    There’s this weird habit that happens at the end of a night, when a woman is off to her car, alone. The host will request someone to walk with her, and sometimes, they will insist that it be a man. I have no problem with the idea that she shouldn’t go alone. But not once, not once in my recollection, has even one person suggested that maybe I, as a man, might benefit from such assistance. And the truth is, when you really think about it, save for strength in numbers, most people, most men, really wouldn’t know what to do if the woman they walked with were attacked. Now, picture that man alone, and someone attacks him? It happens all the time, probably more often then women getting attacked, considering that more violence happens between and among men. And yet somehow it’s discounted.

    This is why making violence against women special somehow feels wrong. Violence is violence, and it should be discouraged in all its forms. Yet for some reason, men are not only responsible for all the violence that any woman has suffered, but it’s also on them to protect themselves from other men who commit violence.

    The bottom line, and my final point is this: there is a class of men, either wealthy or violent or both, who gets all the “benefits” of society. It isn’t the everyday man who does. The everyday man gets beat up or beat down at least as much as any woman. The truth is that there isn’t a war on women; there’s a war by the greedy and the ruthless against everyone else.

    When it’s put in that context, the vast majority of men who aren’t rapists or misogynists could get on board. Without this context, it just feels like we’re being lumped into a group criminals that are labeled “men”.

  • Seven

    Moronic. Rape can happen to men, this theory requires every woman in America to be permentantly leathered, it stereotypes men as cruel rapists (I’m trying not to take offence at this point) and justifies the woman in the scenario, despite the fact that she was prejudiced and in the wrong. If a man hurts a woman, he is more likely to spend jail time than if a woman hurt a man, which you justified here. Moronic.

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  • Mike Lee

    I’m no member of the MRA, and often consider myself a feminist. But do NOT tell me an emotional construct can be built to cut one way and not another. I find the idea of “systemic misandry” laughable, but anyone who says that there aren’t people out there, women AND men, who personally find men of less value than women is detached from reality. And by all means, protect women. But don’t tell me the courts can’t be manipulated in the favor of them with no real evidence for doing so, or even much in the opposite direction. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWyMwbTHWI8

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  • anneheuckmann

    I still don’t get why people think that reacting to a problem with “BUT THERE ARE OTHER PROBLEMS AS WELL!!” is some kind of a solution or excuse for anything. Sexism and mysogyny exist. Misoandry maybe too, to a certain extent, but that doesn’t mean that it’s therefore somehow demanded to accept any of those problems.

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  • Jack Troughton

    Noooo systemic misandry is not a myth. It’s the part radical victim’s studies can’t admit, because then actually equality has to happen, and that can’t happen, because then the whole racket of being compassionate and human falls of the face of this hate-machine. It’s just the jsutification of racism, and sexism, this ideology, nothing more. You hate people, but can’t just admit it, cause you know it’s wrong, and hide nestled within a specious card-house of logic to justify this virulent hate.

  • Wade Sorell

    sounds like feminist logic to me..”.Men live in this gilded cage of societal expectation and MRAs really should be fighting THAT. It seems like a large portion of MRAs are young men who think “Mens Rights” sounds like a good idea but don’t really understand the cultural implications.” our human rights are just fine its just peer group pressure we have to worry about. I appreciate your empathy but there is a bit more to it than that….especially in Australia…

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    so this is going on the idea that the person you see if your a woman is bigger then you, um… I’m not a tall man by any comparison. Infact you’d have to be 5″ to be shorter. that being said there are women out there alot taller then me that while they might not have rape on the mind can assault me for various reasons. so lets’ insert some logic in here men are different heights and weights and so are women.. but hey lets not forget that most of the violent crimes out there are made by men against men.. but you don’t want to look at the numbers because there’s more victims that are male of violent crimes then women and your argument falls apart. Sorry you forgot to consider that there are smaller males and larger females in the world. Stop looking at things from only that perspective because half truths are lies.

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